P38 immobiliser problems again - maybe ?

As rick posted previously, you need the "Check Engine" light on when the ignition is switched on.
It's rare for the bulb to blow, but if there is no "Check Engine", the car will not start....Full Stop !!!
Either a relearn to restore the "Handshake" between the Becm and Gems ecu which can be done with Test Book, or, get the Becm unlocked and reset which Test Book can't do.

I cannot beleive that you've gone to all this trouble when the problem is, as irishrover put it, the handshake between the gems ecu & the becm.
What are you changing fuse boxes for. Get yourself a resyncer tool for the gems engine & reset the damned codes.
We might as well hit our heads against a bloody brick wall. You couldn't pay for the experiance & expertise that you get from this forum, & what do you do, you bloody ignore it. Why the hell we bother, i just don't know.

Wow – a flame! Haven’t had one of those for years!

Well Rick – here’s the scoop. This forum is indeed, a great source of “experience and expertise”, but it’s not the only one as you know. And – guess what – opinions differ from each of the various contributors, and I’m here in the middle of this crazy little bankrupt country trying to integrate all the input and figure out a course of action. The few P38s around here are all basic DT diesel-engined manual-gearbox cloth-upholstery chuggers whose owners know less about them than I do. Not much help there then.

So why did I change the fuse box? Several reasons :-

1. ETM diagnostics (Section B1 pages 6-8) suggest it could be faulty. Forum members are often advised to “RTFM” so I thought I should do just that.

2. My local LR specialist thinks it’s faulty – he bypassed it and the starter solenoid kicked in and the engine turned over.

3. Other fonts of knowledge like rangerovers.net suggest that a faulty fuse box can also look like a BECM problem.

4. Specific owners have apparently had problems with the pink connector on the underside of the fuse box and that’s where the ignition circuitry comes out.

5. And finally, my original fuse box suffered the dreaded burning around RL7; I did the repair job described in rangerovers.net a couple of years ago (not for the faint hearted - luckily I can wield a test meter and soldering iron without problems), but for several months each year, the car sits in full sun for several hours each day with an ambient temperature around 30 degrees. You know the fuse box is just under the bonnet so it doesn’t get much protection in that respect. And when I start the engine it gets another massive source of heat to contend with! So the fuse box gets hammered by heat and I have seen what heat does to plastic around here, and the fuse box in particular.

So, for the sake of a few quid, replacing it seemed like a sensible thing to do all round.

My LR specialist’s diagnostic tool couldn’t talk to the ECU (no I don’t know what unit he uses or why it couldn’t read the codes) so we drew a blank there. He thinks the BECM is OK because many other related BECM functions that can be observed (e.g. remote locking, ignition relay RL16 energising, fuel pump running, check engine light, etc.) work OK. Additionally (and somewhat surprisingly given the history of this fault) there is no "ENGINE DISABLED" message or equivalent.

I don’t currently have ready access to a “resyncer tool for the gems engine” so I am not able to “reset the damned codes”. However, I have today been in touch with Blackbox Solutions about a Sync-Mate since there doesn’t seem to be an alternative course of action to prove / disprove the BECM/ECU code situation at this juncture. But that’s over £120 to fork out without knowing whether it will work, so I don’t do it lightly. And I just have the one P38 to get running – not a whole bunch like you probably encounter.

So, Rick, I don’t ignore the posts that people are kind enough to make on the various forums (fora?) that we probably both frequent. But I don’t have the luxury of being a few miles away from someone like you with all the experience AND tools to resolve these issues.

I’m going to assume you had a bad day for some reason and just had to let off some steam.

Now – back to the plot – not much more I can do till I get my hands on a Sync-Mate I guess.

Regards

Graeme

Calm Down Dear, **** on central by the look of it

And that was helpful - er - how exactly ...

I am calm - maybe you should get real

:focus:

GRC

GRC50 said:

Now – back to the plot – not much more I can do till I get my hands on a Sync-Mate I guess.

Regards

Graeme

Click to expand...

Instead of buying a syncmate, look at buying the single vehicle Faultmate kit, that will cover all the other problems you are likely to encounter. Not cheap but a good investment if you are miles from any support as I am

Datatek said:

Instead of buying a syncmate, look at buying the single vehicle Faultmate kit, that will cover all the other problems you are likely to encounter. Not cheap but a good investment if you are miles from any support as I am

Click to expand...

I have looked at them but, unfortunately, they are £500 even with the nano server. My LR man is only 10 minutes drive away and he normally fixes things with his box of tricks. However, on this occasion, he is stumped.

I already have the EAS unlock software and cable from RSW and have EAS bypass etc. So I'm not actualy looking to invest any more in diagnostic tools right now.

Bear in mind that my car is now only worth about £2,000 in the UK (although more over here) so there comes a point at which enough is enough. If I can get the old girl mobile again I think I'll get rid of her - the value of replacement parts and labour costs is now becoming a significant percentage of total value!

Plus, with my ever-advancing years, I'm no longer up for spending hours in the bowels of a car.

Regards

GRC50 said:

And that was helpful - er - how exactly ...

I am calm - maybe you should get real

:focus:

GRC

Click to expand...

Maybe you should stick the cost on customers bill and stop whining like a 5 year old.

Personally I'm surprised that you haven't been told to **** off in stronger terms- you can lead a horse to water but can't make it drink.

You really should take your head out of your arse and play nicely with the people trying to help you.

Also If you can't afford to repair it it is time to get rid of it.

Right, lets get a few things straight here.

I belong to every forum going including RR.net. I also export quite a few range rover's & discovery's to Portugal.

I also get god know's how many phones call's a day from main dealers, independents & small local garages worldwide with regards to P38's immobilsation systems & other electrical problems.

It's not my problem if you don't wish to listen, if you did you would of been up & running a long time ago without the expense of replacing whatever you've replaced & by the fact you have compromised the ecu's on the vehicle by jumping wires across to the starter.
Your particular problem i've seen more times this month than you've had christmas's, & to help solve this problem i personally had the Resyncers commisioned by blackbox solutions to address this problem & Colin from blackbox will verify this fact.
If i was you, i'd go to blackbox solutions & purchase the set of 3 resyncers, the gems, edc & motronic & they will address any other range rover you get your hands on with this same problem.
Now as for flaming, I'm not flaming. I'm as calm as anything.

OK Rick, we've both said our bit, vented our spleens - whatever. Now that you've set yourself up as the expert, I'd like to push my luck by seeking your input one more time while I wait for a Sync-Mate. I just hope I don't join the band of people I've discovered who bought a Sync-Mate only to find it didn't fix the problem. And yes - I've seen the correspondence which led to the GEMS version being made available, so thank you for your influence there. I presume you think that a Sync-Mate is what you had in mind to reset the codes.

Here's the current situation, and some facts have changed.

I decided to go back to square one and recheck as much as I can via the circuit diagrams etc. because I may have missed something, and/or it could have got lost in translation (my LR man speaks very little English and my Portuguese is average at best).

In actual fact RL16 is NOT energising when the key is turned, but when I physically manipulate it (by removing its cover etc.) to close the circuit the engine cranks as expected, but doesn't fire up. So I have +12V on pins 1 and 3 of RL16 via MF2 as expected, but only on pin 5 (which goes to the starter solenoid) if I physically close the relay. Clearly pin 2 is not getting a ground/earth to energise the relay to start the engine when required.

Furthermore, I am NOT getting the CHECK ENGINE light illuminated, nor am I getting any ENGINE DISABLED messages. All other indicators seem to be OK.

So now back to the BECM side of things I guess to see why it’s not energising the relay. From the circuit diagram on Section B16 Page 2 of the ETM it looks like I need a straight earth/ground via the ignition switch and BECM to pin 2 of RL16 in order to energise it.

Test 1A in the ETM looks for +12V at pin 5 of RL16 with the key at position III. I fail this test (obviously) with 0V which is why the starter solenoid doesn't engage.

Test 2A looks for +12V at pin 2 of RL16 with the key at position 0. I fail this test with 0V, which should only occur with the key at position III as I understand. Engine Compartment Fuse Box or RL16 are identified as Problem Causes. RL16 is OK because I've swapped it out with no change.

Test 3A looks for +12V at the output of the BECM with the key at position III. I pass this test. Unfortunately, the desired state is 0V to energise RL16. Problem Cause is suggested as BECM, Ignition Switch or broken WR or B wires. I think the ignition switch is OK (key recognition is OK, other starting circuits seem to engage).

So I'm clearly not getting a ground signal to pin 2 of RL16 when the key is at position III (i.e. start engine).

So here's a question:-

The earth / ground route is (from the above circuit diagram) E252 – S215 – C238 – X134 – C238 – C257 – C113 – C177 – RL16. If I follow this circuit gradually earthing each segment, with the ignition key on position II, am I likely to (further) damage the BECM / ECU and / or learn anything? Or should I just assume (as I believe you do) that it's the BECM between C257 and C113 that's screwed and wait for the Sync-Mate?

Thank you for your views to date and any subsequent input.

Regards

Graeme

Now look at what you've just posted, & you still want help?

Rick-the-Pick said:

Now look at what you've just posted, & you still want help?

Click to expand...

I agree-let the knob flounder in self importance/pity

You have answered your own question and confirmed what has been said already,by stating the "Check Engine light" does not illuminate.Classic out of sync indication.
You always run the risk when applying gnds /voltages to circuitry of causing damage!

Why do some people always look for difficult answers to simple problems?

Well my Sync-Mate finally arrived and did the trick. No doubt there will be "told you so" coming at me from multiple directions and with varying phraseology, but I guess that goes with the territory.

So thank you to those who did try to help me - I now know a bit more about these beasts than I did before.

Until the next problem then ...

Obrigado e boa noite.