OWUT / Bell's test on youtube compared

In my simpleminded way I tend to trust in what I can see measure touch count taste and smell above opinions – so here goes - VCU OWUT (One Wheel Up Test)and Bells Youtube Test – a comparison.


Just watched Bells test video to take a stab at the time for from horizontal to 45degrees. Thats comparable to the OWUP in as much as it is not an absolutely constant torque applied but the method is the same.


I guessed about 3 secs for the Bell test from horizontal to 45degrees – that’s 360/45 x 3secs for a rev = 24secs = 60/24 = 2.5rpm slippage.

Torque applied was 7kg x 0.78m = 5.46 metre kilograms


On a OWUT the torque on the VCU is reduced by (ignoring friction) by the CW/Pinion gearing and doubled by the Diff gearing as the other wheel is static.


So to get 5.46 Metre Kilograms you need 5.46 x 45/14 x ½ = 8.78 Metre Kilograms


and using a 1.2 metre bar that’s 7.3kg weight.


Going back to Bells slippage speed of 2.5 rpm at the vcu to achieve that on a OWUT you need to drive the wheel at 2.5 x14/45 x 2 = 1.56rpm – for 45 degrees that’s 45/360 x 1.56 x 60secs = 11.7 secs.


Surprise surprise!! – given that I ignored friction and there WILL be some and I guessed Bell’s 3 seconds - I find my trucks time of 12secs and my Daughters 10k old new GKN VCU’s time of 11secs using an 8KG load very comparable – that’s only a 10% difference in weight to achieve the same slippage speed.


Hippo’s graph back in 2012 needed 10kg to achieve 12 seconds – a little stiffer than ours but generally believed to be still very useable.


So – The OWUT at 8kg and Bell’s rig are to all intents and purposes comparable


That’s not opinion – just arithmetic.


I’ll get me coat.

At last someone else has realised there's a link between the results
try the calc:
1.2m bar
8kg weight
9.8 = angular velocity
force on bar = 1.2 x 8 x 9.8 = 94Nm when horizontal
force varies with angle which is why we use 45 degrees to horizontal for testing/timing
bell uses a heavier bar which will have an offset - props are heavy if you hold them at one end only

Yer can have a cookie anorl.

Well done for putting the thought and effort into making the comparison. It provides results to confirm the common sense that the OWUT is a geared version of the workbench test used by Bells.

I suppose if we were being anal, we would say that you'd have to take your VCU off and do the workbench test on that to give a definitive comparative answer! Personally I don't think there's a need.

GrumpyGel said:

Well done for putting the thought and effort into making the comparison. It provides results to confirm the common sense that the OWUT is a geared version of the workbench test used by Bells.

I suppose if we were being anal, we would say that you'd have to take your VCU off and do the workbench test on that to give a definitive comparative answer! Personally I don't think there's a need.

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I've always said that the two tests are the same. They just use a different method of application.

Bell offer free VCU testing. They conduct this test with the weighted rod, as in the video. If the tests isn't valid, there's no way they could confirm that the VCU under test is good or bad.
So the OWUT is perfectly acceptable for testing the VCU, without having to remove it from the vehicle.

It is actually far far easier -
Simply drive the vehicle and test for tightness on FULL lock. If there is any noticeable tightness, *without other mechanical issues- which of course would affect any other type of test) then the VCU is end of life.
Why go to all the hassle of the OWUT when it is simply not needed ?


A NON solution looking for a problem.

If you feel so inclined to do the so called OWUT then great - good on ya'..... however, when the dreaded issues arise - which are definitely not progressively constant - then you are screwed - however - low and behold - amazingly - and utterly simply - you can surpass and bypass all; that cr&p by simply testing for tightness on lock - something you can do any day and every day.

Please check out the definite guide
http://www.bellengineering.co.uk/5.html

Job sorted - perform it every-time you drive.

IF you ever get a feeling of tightness on lock - then after ruling out any mechanical issues (Brakes etc WILL NOT cause this issue) - then you need a new VCU.
ANYONE that says that the tightness on lock as a measure of VCU effectiveness is misguided is ill informed, ignoring fact, delusional, or - totally paranoid - and - blatantly vindictive against Bell....
Oooops - sorry Nodge - I described you lol ....

No need to jack up a wheel to do something that is able to be performed very very easily at all and ANY time(s) you are driving. It makes no sense at all to do otherwise...
But, each to their own... whatever floats your boat - or jacks up your wheel... feel free to waste your time.

If it progressively tightens on full lock, you have an issue - period.....
Why on earth bother with all the jack &^%$££..................
Joe

Predictable response there Joe (;-))

There is no need for this thread to be taken as anti Bell Engineering who are held in high regard here and certainly no justification to get personal.

Nobody is knocking the reverse/full lock test but it's scope to be comparitive is very limited.

The more effective tests for the conformation of the condition of VCUs the better and the OWUT gives comparitive and useful results.

@Joe_H please drop the personal vendetta

dfossil said:

Predictable response there Joe (;-))

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That's for sure.

Joe_H said:

It is actually far far easier -
Simply drive the vehicle and test for tightness on FULL lock. If there is any noticeable tightness, *without other mechanical issues- which of course would affect any other type of test) then the VCU is end of life.
Why go to all the hassle of the OWUT when it is simply not needed ?


A NON solution looking for a problem.

Click to expand...

As has been said many times Joe, feeling for tightness on full lock is not that reliable. People have not felt tightness/braking effect but on doing the OWUT the VCU has been found to be to tight and should be replaced. I didn't feel any tightness in my transmission and the IRD blew due to wind up. I wasn't fully aware of how the transmission worked at the tiime - but even so, I didn't notice any tightness.

It is also not true that factors affecting full lock tightness testing would affect other tests. If your tyres are not matched this can give a false positive/negative on the lock test - depending on direction turning and which tyres are larger/smaller - byt tyres have no effect on the OWUT.

Joe_H said:

If you feel so inclined to do the so called OWUT then great - good on ya'..... however, when the dreaded issues arise - which are definitely not progressively constant - then you are screwed - however - low and behold - amazingly - and utterly simply - you can surpass and bypass all; that cr&p by simply testing for tightness on lock - something you can do any day and every day.

Please check out the definite guide
http://www.bellengineering.co.uk/5.html

Job sorted - perform it every-time you drive.

Click to expand...

Are you saying VCUs do not degrade over time? Are you saying 1 minute they are fine, the next they are "broken"? Is that what you mean by
"when the dreaded issues arise - which are definitely not progressively constant"? If so where's the information to back that up?

Personally I believe the only non-progressive wind-up issues are related to tyres - not the VCU.

So, why would anyone be screwed doing the OWUT? Its obviously not something that anyone would do every day, its a test to be done at regular intervals, like checking oil, water, tyre pressures etc. It will give you an accurate indication of the ongoing health of your VCU.

Why do you say "All that ***"? It takes only a couple of minutes and its very simple?

(PS This is a public forum - no bad language please - especially tyring to be "clever" by substituting a letter so that the word is not masked)

Yeh - do your lock/tightness test if you want, obviously almost everyone else is happy with the OWUT.

There's lots of useful info on that Bell's page - buts it not a "Definite" guide - it not even a "definitive" guide. They talk in simple terms to people who don't know anything about Freelander. They do not suggest using the OWUT - but similarly, they do not say the OWUT is bad.

Joe_H said:

IF you ever get a feeling of tightness on lock - then after ruling out any mechanical issues (Brakes etc WILL NOT cause this issue) - then you need a new VCU.

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Absolutely, if you do get a feeling of tightness on lock - it should be investigated - that's a "no brainer". As you say, it might be various things. You don't mention the obvious thing to check first - the tyres. If you think you've ruled everything else out, then it is probably the VCU and the OWUT will confirm that suspicion. If you had been doing the OWUT regularly, it would probably warn you of a tightening VCU before you felt anything different with the car - if indeed you do feel it before your transmission blows.

Joe_H said:

ANYONE that says that the tightness on lock as a measure of VCU effectiveness is misguided is ill informed, ignoring fact, delusional, or - totally paranoid - and - blatantly vindictive against Bell....
Oooops - sorry Nodge - I described you lol ....

No need to jack up a wheel to do something that is able to be performed very very easily at all and ANY time(s) you are driving. It makes no sense at all to do otherwise...
But, each to their own... whatever floats your boat - or jacks up your wheel... feel free to waste your time.

If it progressively tightens on full lock, you have an issue - period.....
Why on earth bother with all the jack &^%$££..................
Joe

Click to expand...

What an absolute pile of childish drivel Joe. You spout this sort of rubbish far to frequently on threads of various subjects - I'm sure its why regulars don't have faith in anything you have to say and probably scares noobs away from the forum.

HEY - I did not rubbish the reverse test - which I do every day when I set off in my truck - I just did an arithmetic comparison between the Bell test and the OWUT - so to be honest - I think an apology from Joe for being an evangelical pratt would be in order - in another thread I pointed out that the reverse test is actually very similar in practise to the other two tests as a low speed slippage test whereas the Land Rover test is quite high speed (75rpm slippage) and as such would test the hump mode point more effectively that the other three.
So - can I just say - this thread was purely a comparison between two test arithmetically- not a judgement call on other tests - so - Joe - a little quiet please

The one wheel up test OWUT is easy to do
The turnip test is also easy to do
Both give valid data
It's possible over the years I may have on the odd occasion advertised the benefits of these tests. Ma hippo is well known world wide for it, looking at the stats on his you tube video's. The same can be said for his gearbox resistance measuring. He's quite proud of his input into that anorl. As these video's are online peeps see them and some contact me direct via ere or you tube to ask specific questions. Sometimes the contact is because their hippo is broke'd. Often wanting advice on what to do next or raising the question: is it worth continuing... The one thing I don't like is when I read peeps have suffered damage with their transmission which could have been easily detected then avoided. Second is when finances won't allow a fix and they're struggling, with the broke'd hippo sometimes causing them further hardship. Hence why it cuts so deep when peeps tell others they shouldn't perform an easy test which may save then from the loss of their hippo, or financial hardship when it's broke'd. One I remember was owned in the same family from new (so known all it's life) and split it's ird at 56k miles.

nuff sed - yo motor Joe - do want you want. dont knock or belittle others choice either. OWUT is proven to work.Reversing has been proved to not always work. Your choice.

Joe_H said:

It is actually far far easier -
Simply drive the vehicle and test for tightness on FULL lock. If there is any noticeable tightness, *without other mechanical issues- which of course would affect any other type of test) then the VCU is end of life.
Why go to all the hassle of the OWUT when it is simply not needed ?


A NON solution looking for a problem.

If you feel so inclined to do the so called OWUT then great - good on ya'..... however, when the dreaded issues arise - which are definitely not progressively constant - then you are screwed - however - low and behold - amazingly - and utterly simply - you can surpass and bypass all; that cr&p by simply testing for tightness on lock - something you can do any day and every day.
If it progressively tightens on full lock, you have an issue - period.....
Why on earth bother with all the jack &^%$££..................
Joe

Click to expand...

Rubbish.
This is the TSB from LR
http://www.myfreelander.co.uk/Transmission/transprobs1.htm

Joe_H said:

- and - blatantly vindictive against Bell....
Oooops - sorry Nodge - I described you lol ....

Joe

Click to expand...

Completely untrue. You need to get your facts correct before you start spouting lies about me. I've sent far more potential customers to Bell than you have. This forum and it's helpful members have been supporting Bell's VCU business for years. Maybe you should get your facts about me correct.
Just because you have sour grapes over that little project of yours that I've refused to help you with. You're are such a child. My 8 year old is more grown up than you.

Oh. And just for reference Joe. Austin (Bell Engineering)
Suggested and helped out with the OWUT initial development.

austen said:

My suggestion (based on Hippos's test) is do time it through 45 degs, with a known weight and extension bar. Do this for a range of vcu and we get an easily repeatable result, that joe blogs can do with minimal tools, no need for a torque wrench. I will try and give a range of acceptable times.

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So wind your neck in.

Interesting that Austin didn't rubbish the OWU test. In fact he seems to be all for it here.
https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/an-open-letter-to-austen.148283/page-2#post-1469798

Oops, you beat me to it there Nodge.

This is taken from the page on Bells website linked to by Joe_H

"What actually happens is the silicon viscous fluid gets thicker and thicker with wear and slowly causes the viscous coupling to become stiffer and stiffer to rotate. More and more strain is therefore put on the gear train and failure eventually occurs to the IRD and rear diff."

That would imply the VCU does not fail suddenly, but then we already knew that, so the chances of being caught out by doing the OWU test are zero. In any case nobody would be stupid enough to do the OWU test without already doing the reverse test. The OWU test is then done to confirm the reverse test findings, especially as for most folk they are inconclusive.
The reverse test will never suddenly tell you one day that your VCU needs replaced. The change in reversing characteristics will be very gradual over a period of years so if you have owned the car for some time it would be very easy to not notice the change happening.
The only time the VCU will suddenly get worse is if you have a tyre or mechanical issue putting extra strain on it. If you are lucky you would spot that by the reverse test then confirm with the OWU test. If you had done the OWU test previously you will then have data to compare against and can be sure if the VCU has worsened or not and if so you can then compare your results with others to see if you have cause for concern.
All Freelanders that I have driven had a noticeable tightness while reversing in a circle. This is very slight in that they slow down much quicker than they would normally but don't really feel like the brakes are on. The difficulty is knowing when it is normal, a little bit bad, medium bad or dangerously bad. Unless you have a new VCU to compare it to and for that matter a very tight VCU then 99.9% of people will not be sure.
It is true that if the car feels like the brakes are on you really need to get it looked at but I'd rather know if my VCU was stressing the drive train before it got that bad.

Alibro said:

If you had done the OWU test previously you will then have data to compare against

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says it all really.

Pass the popcorn MHM

Is this a new episode of this argument or a repeat?
Getting harder and harder to tell as I get older and more befuddled.

davidsmith1307 said:

Is this a new episode of this argument or a repeat?
Getting harder and harder to tell as I get older and more befuddled.

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Fooked if I know.
There's loads of little tests to check the general condition of the vcu. Do whichever you want or all of them. Each of us is responsible for our own Freelander.
Ultimately, there's no actual set time for how long a vcu will last. And it will vary on how you use/look after yours and how careful we are with tyre choice and maintainance.

All points are valid, it really isn't worth an argument.

Mike