Oil grade?

Well that didnt take long

M2C-159-* (which most of these Tractor Universals meet) was introduced in 1986 and last revised in 1993. Therefore that in itself tells me not to user it in anything more modern than that. But if you look further the spec meets API CD/SE. Great you think, it meets a major spec so must be a good choice. That is until you look at the chart

API Oil Service Categories

These are both obsolete specs that were current in the 60's and have moved on 8 times since then It even gives a warning not to use them in a petrol engine built after 1979.

They are called Universal because you use one oil in every part of the tractor, engine, gearbox, hydraulics etc so will not have the same additive packs a dedicated engine oil will have.

You dont have to pay fortunes for oil, costco do a 10w40 chevron in 20L barrels for around £35 which works out as around 1.75 a litre.

sierrafery said:

I might be dumb again(knowing that the Saab 900 is diesel)..... but i must ask did u use this oil in petrol engines too?

Click to expand...

SAAB 900 Turbo Aero (December 1985)

Turbocharged, intercooled, fuel injection, twin overhead cams, sixteen valves, petrol engine with automatic performance control.

Clears 150mph!

ALL our petrol engines get this oil.
Engine oils for petrol engines are WIMP oils compared to oils fit for turbo diesels.

Charles

Tuskenraider said:

Well that didnt take long

M2C-159-* (which most of these Tractor Universals meet) was introduced in 1986 and last revised in 1993. Therefore that in itself tells me not to user it in anything more modern than that. But if you look further the spec meets API CD/SE. Great you think, it meets a major spec so must be a good choice. That is until you look at the chart

API Oil Service Categories

These are both obsolete specs that were current in the 60's and have moved on 8 times since then It even gives a warning not to use them in a petrol engine built after 1979.

They are called Universal because you use one oil in every part of the tractor, engine, gearbox, hydraulics etc so will not have the same additive packs a dedicated engine oil will have.

You dont have to pay fortunes for oil, costco do a 10w40 chevron in 20L barrels for around £35 which works out as around 1.75 a litre.

Click to expand...

Geez but you've been suckered by their propaganda!

ALL of these new specs are claimed to reduce emissions, low sulphur, and drivel like that, all designed TO MAKE YOU PAY MORE and feel good doing it. The oils themselves are LESS good because they are trying to reduce emissions. I am trying to protect my engines.

Well now, I don't give a sh*t about emissions. My whole house is heated by carbon neutral (and free) wood, but I don't care anyway. If I needed to burn coal or oil I would. I buy oil to LUBRICATE MY ENGINES, not to "reduce emissions" which is a load of crap anyway!

M2C-159-A/B is only a FORD specification that more or less matches API CE-SF .

API CE/SF
• Ford M2C 86B
M2C 134B
M2C 159A/B
• New Holland NH 420A
• Massey Ferguson M1139
M1127
M1135
M1129A
• John Deere J20A
• Allison C3, C4
• Caterpillar TO-2
• API GL-4 SAE80

dated January 2006

I have the experience of thirty years of faultless performance from these Tractor Universal engine oils in every engine I have ever had, so please don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about. If you are happy to accept their propaganda and be ripped off, then I am happy for you too.

CharlesY

Tuskenraider said:

Well that didnt take long
http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/API.html
They are called Universal because you use one oil in every part of the tractor, engine, gearbox, hydraulics etc so will not have the same additive packs a dedicated engine oil will have.

.

Click to expand...

You write that in such a way as suggests the OIL is somehow less competent because of its ability to serve different purposes.
Nothing could be further from the truth!

These Tractor Universal oils weren't so much made to suit the tractors but rather the tractors were designed to be fit to operate using one type of oil.
This was to save farmers having to stock a range of oils, and to reduce the risk of them putting EP140 into the engine, and SAE10 into a hypoid bevel axle, for example.

To achieve this, the tractor designers had to make all their components fit to work in a common specification and grade of OIL, and the oil makers had to ensure their oils could stand all the abuse a farmer could throw at them, which is LOTS of serious abuse and very hard work. It requires oils of the very finest quality, and that's why I use it.

The hydraulics in my tractor operate at about 200 BAR, that's THREE THOUSAND psi!

On busy day the engine runs at full throttle and full revs from dawn to dusk, and never a problem.

When the engine oil is changed, it gets strained and tipped right into the FUEL tank! Waste not, want not. Oil is oil. You can do this with your Landy LEGALLY, and the blackness disguises any other colours that might be in the tank, such as red.

CharlesY

Well if you want to use it then go ahead you obviously know more than all the oil companies, every motor manufacturer in the world and the two establishments that classify oil useage.

However I dont think you should be telling others to use it as if it causes an issue then I doubt you are going to pay for them to get their engine repaired

How often is the service interval in a tractor? bets its not 6000 miles is it? I doubt people are going to be wanting to change their oil every 1000 miles because the oil doesnt have the right amount of detergents and friction modifiers in it to last a full service interval.

Feel free to send me a sample and I will get it tested and compare it to some pretty normal oil (Halfords own brand etc) and some top end oils and let everyone see how good it really is. You can even send me a used sample the next time you do a change and I will tell you what state your engine is in :tea:

:doh:

Tuskenraider said:

Feel free to send me a sample and I will get it tested and compare it to some pretty normal oil (Halfords own brand etc) and some top end oils and let everyone see how good it really is. You can even send me a used sample the next time you do a change and I will tell you what state your engine is in :tea:

Click to expand...

I've had that done many times by people who are (I guess) more competent than you and I both. I didn't go into long-term use of these oils without a bit of investigation first.

What do you mean when you say "good" in regards to an oil? What factors do you say makes one oil better than another oil?

The results of the oil samples I have had tested have always been this -
1. the TUO oils are standing up very well to the use, and
2. the engines are being protected extremely well.

The SAAB Turbo PETROL engine is over 100,000 miles on Ovoline TUO, and my Disco TD5 is now on 60,000 miles using it. Both engines are clean as whistles inside.

This is proof that such oils are entirely unsuitable for anything except tractors - any fool can see that, and apart from that, the oil companies tell you so. Always believe the oil companies. They're the ones who from 1920 till into the 1990s loaded trash petrol with tetra-ethyl lead so it wouldn't 'pink' in modest compression ratio engines, while KNOWING that the exhaust released lethal amounts of toxic lead fumes. It saved them from having to make good quality fuels, and they made more profits. Which oil company was it that destroyed all those Vauxhall engines because they took a little shortcut with their petrol? Why do we have to suffer diesel 'waxing' in the winter here, when in other countries the diesel is de-waxed to stop this happening? PROFITS ... that's all they care about.


Remember, oil companies do not exist to supply us with fuel and oil - the ONLY reason they exist is to make maximum PROFITS for the owners, the shareholders. The way they do that is to persuade gullible people to pay over the odds for hyped-up products. YOUR extra money paid, is more profits to them. For decades Castrol GTX was hyped up and all the experts used it. But Castrol didn't even say what GRADE the stuff was! Eventually they were forced to say what it was.

Let's agree to differ. You spend your money boosting the profits of oils companies, and I will spend mine on my hobbies.

CharlesY

So that's the end of this thread, or is it till the next time when a thread is started on "what oil do I use" and all we get is "use tractor oil".

I just did search on the subject and found 10 treads including this one where tractor oil mentioned. :blabla:

So wot oil do we use then?

This reminds me of a thread that got heated in a US engineering forum i frequent. The question was "what oil can i use on my chainsaw" the answers ranged from "any oil" through to "i use gear oil mixed with STP" then on to "why dont you just f%&*ing use chainsaw bar oil you idiot", i was amazed that the question was asked in the first place as i would just slap on chainsaw bar oil! as it says on the tin.

Its amazing how oil can raise such debate

Tuskenraider said:

How often is the service interval in a tractor? bets its not 6000 miles is it? :tea:

Click to expand...

Mileage as such is about the most useless unit to use when deciding to service an engine or change the oil. In fact, the ONLY reason car-makers use mileage is because it is possible to persuade the owners to look at the odometer once in a while. The idea is to scare them into changing the oil. Find out how much the oil companies pay the car makers to get the car-makers to specify THEIR oils in the car's user manual. Plenty. You pay for that too when you pay for the car.

6,000 miles driving is reckoned to be about 100 to 150 engine OPERATING HOURS. You will find that most hard-working machines have HOURS METERS in them, by which to judge when the lubes should be changed. 250 engine hours would be reckoned quite a lot. 100 hours for an oil change would not be uncommon.

Miles run is a terrible unit to use.

How many hours running does it take a hard-driving sales rep to cover 6,000 miles mostly on motorways? One hundred hours should see it, and his engine oil will be fit to do the same again because that is all ideal running for an engine. Indeed, any quality oil would probably be well inside specification, and CLEAN, at well over 20,000 miles if used in good driving conditions like that, motorway cruising at a steady speed on light throttle.

Now think about a doctor, or a city taxi which sits ticking-over half the time. They probably average about 15 - 20 miles an hour at best. 6,000 miles at 15 mph takes 400 hours (more than 17 days), and that's 400 hours of lousy running conditions, hot, cold, warm, fast, slow stop, start, it could hardly be worse. Even at 12 hours a day, 400 running hours takes over 33 days, so about a month. The oil will be disgusting by that time, black as sin, sludgy, acidic, horrible, and the engine's insides will be equally horrible. Taxi drivers would do well to change their engine oil about every 100 HOURS, even if that means once a week for a double-shifted car.

Operating conditions and running HOURS are the factors that determine routine oil change intervals, not miles. I change mine when it LOOKS like it needs changed, and I THINK it needs changed, and not a day sooner. Sometimes it will be well over 10k miles, but in the winter when my runs are shorter, probably every 5k miles is plenty.

Think about it.

CharlesY

Mileage is convienient as its the only measurement people have to go on in a vehicle. All our dyno testing is done in hours and range from 200hr EGR tests to full 1202hr durabs with various different tests inbetween to simulate different driving styles and conditions. The data from the oil analysis is then collected where a number of factors are looked at, soot levels, TBN/TAN, wear metals, fuel dilution and the viscosity of the oil over time. We then decide on an oil service interval from that data and put it to test in actual vehicles and again collect the oil analysis results from different drive cycles and adjust the service time if required. You cant have 5 different service schedules for different drive cycles as people would get confused. What we do work with now are oil monitoring sensors which take readings of the actual oil condition and when it gets to a defined level pops on a service light. This can then accomodate the different driving styles and get people to change their oil at the correct time.

I am very concerned that these SUTO oils cannot seem to pass any modern specs and there must be a reason for this. My first thought is the lack of a decent additive pack, these include detergents and friction modifiers especially as they are suitable to use in wet clutch and braking systems. If you told someone here to use gearbox oil in there engine they would laugh at you

I am definatly interested in getting some tested so if anyone uses it would like to send me fresh sample and one after its been in the engine for a few thousand miles then drop me a PM

If it turns out its an undiscovered gem then at least people will know for sure as I never like the 'Well i have used it for years with no trouble' arguement and prefer facts

Believe me, if we could get away with putting this in our cars and giving less money to BP we would

Interesting Thread, aint forums great? Oil gurus' on the Landyzone! Information is knowledge.
Cheers guys

markbraz said:

Interesting Thread, aint forums great? Oil gurus' on the Landyzone! Information is knowledge.
Cheers guys

Click to expand...

Then one day you will say NO not another "what oil grade do I use thread" same with a How many miles to the gallon of diesel thread :blabla:



And :welcome2:to the Forum

My last post on the subject (honest )

Spoke to an analyst about this and this is what he had to say

In places like New Zealand or South-Africa it is not uncommon to use SUTO for passenger cars or light duty vehicles, particularly in farming communities since they are using the SUTO for their tractors anyway.
On the other hand the SUTOs typically have an API SF/CE performance at most, which is probably too low for 1995 vehicles. We should have at least ACEA A2 or B2 in there and SUTOs do not meet any of the ACEA performance levels.
As a result we could see insufficient protection against oxidation with the associated deposit/lacquering problems affecting engine durability, as well as bad fuel economy as a result of high viscosities (10W-30 or 15W-40 are the typical grades for these products). Oil consumption is also expected to be high due to the high Noack values. SUTOs also have higher ash and phosphorus contents, which is inadvisable for gasoline engines and for many light-duty diesel engines.
Bottom line is that it will work for a while, but not very well…

Click to expand...

Make of that what you will people. As i said you can get a decent quality oil that is suitable for our cars for around £2 a litre if you buy in bulk so no there is no need to spend £40-50 on 5L of super synthetic as you can get 20-25L of semi for the same money. I just see no reason to risk using SUTO for the sake of saving about £5 per oil change

End of the day your car is yours and you are the one who has to run it so do what you see fit, I can only offer advice on the subject to the best of my ability

Have a good weekend :tea:

op2:op2:

davek0974 said:

.

Its amazing how oil can raise such debate

Click to expand...

Indeed.
This is because the oil companies make HUGE profit margins on all lube oils, especially the grades and types sold "retail".

I think most of us would be annoyed if we knew the % markups that the likes of Halfrauds can and do apply. The prices they ask for AND GET for synthetic engines oils is ludicrous. Synthetic oils are no better as lubricants than any suitable mineral oil, but it is claimed the synthetics last longer. Big deal. If the oil stays in the engine twice as long, so does all the build-up of crap. Draining the oil and changing the filter REMOVES at least 95% of the oil and crap. This has to be good.

The oil companies all go a lot of trouble and expense to try to persuade us to buy THEIR products, and to buy them OFTEN. At one time the story was that Castrol spent more money on advertising GTX than it cost them to make the oil. Always remember this - the retail customer pays for it all, and pays the oil companies' profits too.

Keep thinking guys! It's us who have the money to spend, and them who wants us to spend as much as possible of it on their oil.

CharlesY

davek0974 said:

This reminds me of a thread that got heated in a US engineering forum i frequent. The question was "what oil can i use on my chainsaw" the answers ranged from "any oil" through to "i use gear oil mixed with STP" then on to "why dont you just f%&*ing use chainsaw bar oil you idiot", i was amazed that the question was asked in the first place as i would just slap on chainsaw bar oil! as it says on the tin.

Its amazing how oil can raise such debate

Click to expand...

Now chainsaw bar oil is one oil I will NOT be tipping into my engines!

But I have to confess, I have used quite a bit of tractor universal in the chain lube tank of my saws. It lubes well enough, but doesn't stick so well.

Horses for courses I suppose.

CharlesY

I used to worked for a well know German manufacturer of trucks. On long distance operations the oil was fully capable of lasting for 120,000 kms between changes, and this was on Euro 4/5 engines. The computer monitored the oil in terms of number of engine starts and oil temperature, there was a sophisticated oil filter system and the oil had to meet the truck manufacturer’s service specification number. The engines were designed to last, on average 1,000,000 kms with many vehicles surpassing this mileage when they were triple shifted!!

The only thing I would say about engine oil is, make sure the container has a recognisable know name on it!

OldManDisco

CharlesY said:

Synthetic oils are no better as lubricants than any suitable mineral oil, but it is claimed the synthetics last longer.

Click to expand...

ALL oils listed as Synthetic for car engines are actually mineral oils. They are just highly refined mineral oils.