LPG and V8 running fast on tickover.

On or around Fri, 03 Nov 2006 07:47:36 +0000, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>On or around Fri, 3 Nov 2006 01:02:33 -0000, "Badger"
><[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>The DfT have included a clause in the Road
>>Safety Bill currently passing through Parliament which will enable the DfT
>>to bring in a regulation requiring all conversions to be inspected and
>>certificated. A legal requirement and common backstop will be no MOT without
>>certificate."
>
>I ought to take my converted car which was done by an LPGA approved bloke
>and see if they'll certify it... *I* wouldn't, for at least one reason I
>know of.

BTW, it's not per se a safety issue, if it were, I'd have altered it. The
copper gas pipe runs along under the car and passes in front of a jacking
point in such a way that if anyone used the car's own jack on that point,
it'd likely crush the pipe. Since I don't, it won't.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Nessun maggior dolore che ricordarsi del tempo felice nella miseria"
- Dante Alighieri (1265 - 1321) from Divina Commedia 'Inferno'

Badger wrote:
> "hugh" <hugh@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>In message <[email protected]>, Badger
>><[email protected]> writes
>>
>>>"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>>On or around Wed, 1 Nov 2006 18:49:38 -0000, "Badger"
>>>><[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Have a look on the LPGA's installer's list, might be something listed
>>>
>>>there?
>>>
>>>>>Badger.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>and if you're lucky, they might be competent...
>>>
>>>Hehehe, indeed they might just. I don't know of any other listings for
>>>finding out who deals with what equipment though Austin, hence my
>>>suggestion. Your point is correct though.
>>>I'm still looking towards becoming an LPGA "approved" installer, but only
>>>due to threats to change the MOT test. There is talk (by the LPGA,
>
> surprise
>
>>>surprise!) of a change to include presenting an LPGA certificate before
>
> the
>
>>>MOT test commences, regardless of whether the vehicle is running on LPG
>
> or
>
>>>not. No cert, no test.
>>>Now, I've stated to "certain people" that having that approval does not
>>>necessarily mean that the installation is any better than one done by a
>>>non-member and that the government can't really introduce a change that
>>>forces individuals to become a member of a body that has no legal power,
>>>only an advisory role, and that any such change would be against all fair
>>>trade laws. The reply was that there would indeed need to be some sort of
>>>loophole but no-one has really worked out how to administer such.
>>>No surprises there then, that the LPGA don't really want to spend any
>
> time
>
>>>agreeing on a system that would protect you from having to joint them!
>>>That's the impression I have at the moment, at least.
>>>Badger
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Can you be more specific, Badger.
>>
>>Our local MP is Chair of the Parliamentary committee on Transport and if
>>this is a serious threat I will take it up with her. She has always
>>taken an interest in alternative fuels and I have fairly regular contact
>>on other matters.
>>--
>>hugh
>
>
> Copied over from an email received from Mike Chapman, LPGA.
>
> "As regards future legislation we have been lobbying government for years
> and
> at last there is some movement. The DfT have included a clause in the Road
> Safety Bill currently passing through Parliament which will enable the DfT
> to bring in a regulation requiring all conversions to be inspected and
> certificated. A legal requirement and common backstop will be no MOT without
> certificate."
>
> "The DfT have already discounted training all MOT stations for these
> inspections on cost benefit grounds and are currently looking at using the
> skill base of LPGA Approved Installers, albeit those that apply will have to
> meet / be subject to additional criteria."
>
> And from another email, same source,
>
> "As regards legislation, the intention is to use the LPGA approved installer
> skill base for VOSA economic reasons but my own belief it is unlikely that
> that it will be exclusively so. I am sure that VOSA will wish the provide
> the consumer with an independent alternative for the reasons you state
> albeit they will probably not wish to see this alternative in great
> numbers.
>
> As mentioned it is also envisaged that those LPGA Approved Installers which
> wish to take in the inspection role would be subject to additional
> monitoring by VOSA and would need to meet their criteria. In this way any
> there would be better insurance of maintaining standards.
>
> It would not matter which fuel the vehicle was presented on for MOT - if an
> LPG system was fitted then the MOT on either fuel could not be started with
> provision of the Conversion Certificate."
>
> Badger.

That describes it nicely - yet another example of those with vested
interests getting their way with a weak and feeble government.

There isn't a safety issue - it's just another opportunity to fleece
another group who will have no way of avoiding it. And, of course, the
government will get its cut as VAT on the inspection and certification
fee. I don't imagine, either, that would be a one time only
certificate on installation or first inspection so even more cause for
complaint.

Any such proposal will inevitably lead to arguments as to what
constitutes an LPG installation. Which items if not present will be
sufficient to render it incompletely/functionally not installed? You
can imagine an installation being carried out in stages with an MOT
coming along in middle. It would be unjust (not that it usually
matters) to deny the MOT if some of the plumbing only had been
installed, for example.

On Mon, 30 Oct 2006 21:08:30 +0000, Howie
<[email protected]> wrote:

|On Mon, 30 Oct 2006 12:33:28 -0000, "Badger"
|<[email protected]> wrote:
|
||> Hi. Thanks for your help here. The system is a Landi system.
||> Fitted by ACC Autogas of Ledbury, Herefordshire.
||> www.acc-autogas.co.uk
||>
||Ok, that's not a system I'm familiar with, I tend to fit OMVL systems. To
||check for inlet air leaks, first get the engine hot then work your way all
||around the inlet manifold checking every hose joint carefully as you go,
||tracing the hoses and checking both ends. You can squirt a little wd40 on
||the joints and listen for a change in engine rpm, as the wd40 is sucked in
||at a leak the engine will burn it and the revs will rise slightly. If you
||need to replace the inlet manifold upper-to-lower gasket, remove the
||throttle and cruise control cables, disconnect and plug the 2 water pipes at
||the throttle body, use 2 m6 nuts locked together to unscrew the stud
||securing the metal heater pipe to the drivers side of the inlet manifold,
||catching the spacer washer that's between the pipe bracket and manifold.
||Remove 2 8mm bolts securing upper edge of coil packs, undo the 2 8mm lower
||coil pack bolts (awkward access) by about 2 turns to allow the coil packs
||to ease rearwards enough to facilitate manifold removal. Now remove 2
||central 10mm bolts at front and rear of the inlet manifold, remove 4 10mm
||bolts on top of the manifold, ease manifold upwards at the front and rear,
||ease front end towards passenger side slightly and lift forwards off engine.
||When refitting, be careful not to snag the new gasket, try loosely fitting
||the manifold back into place a couple of times until you get the feel for
||it. The gasket is expensive for what it is, about £20-odd and only available
||from landrover!
||Re-fitting is, as they say in all the best comics, the reversal of removal!
||Don't over torque the mounting bolts, they'll strip the threads in the lower
||half of the manifold.
||Badger.
|
|Thanks very much for your time with this advice Brian. Much
|appreciated. Prob won't be able to tackle it until next week, but
|I'll report back here afterwards.
|
|H.

OK. And here I am ;-)

At your suggestion, I had a good check around the joints on all
pipes leading to/from the inlet manifolds. The only noticable
thing that happened was when I squirted some WD40 onto the 2
adjacent joints which are situated at the front of the manifold,
- near side. The pipes seem to be breathers, - one from the
coolant header tank and one from the oil -filler.
Anyway, I squirted some WD40 onto the inlet-manifold end and the
engine dropped revs from its normal 800 to appro 600/650.
So, I tightened up those joints and went for a drive to see if it
stayed the same. After approx 5 mins, the tickover crept back up
to 800-ish again. However, whilst test-driving it and taking much
more notice than in normal driving, I noticed that a lot of the
problem could be to do with the fact that the engine revs don't
drop (retard - I would call it), when you lift you foot off the
accelerator. ie; after completing a gear-change, the revs are
still high (but decreasing). This makes it very difficult to
change up - or down, smoothly.

Perhaps it's a symptom of the same problem?

I discovered that it's impossible to see (never mind, check) the
inlet manifold gasket. I suppose it's under there somewhere?
Bloody V8s. They are a bit scary aren't they?

H.
--
Pontins History E-Mail: [email protected]
Please visit www.pontinshistory.co.uk
Skype ID (instant messaging and video calls): howie10

On or around Sat, 04 Nov 2006 17:20:12 +0000, Howie
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>
>I discovered that it's impossible to see (never mind, check) the
>inlet manifold gasket. I suppose it's under there somewhere?
>Bloody V8s. They are a bit scary aren't they?

lovely engine. I forget which version you've got... but on the hotwire ones
the idle-speed compensation thing seems to mean that it takes a while to
drop back to proper idle sometimes.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Festina Lente" (Hasten slowly) Suetonius (c.70-c.140) Augustus, 25

Austin Shackles wrote:

> lovely engine. I forget which version you've got... but on the hotwire ones
> the idle-speed compensation thing seems to mean that it takes a while to
> drop back to proper idle sometimes.

IIRC it's a "feature" that's supposed to help reduce emissions on
over-run or summat like that.


--
EMB

"Howie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> At your suggestion, I had a good check around the joints on all
> pipes leading to/from the inlet manifolds. The only noticable
> thing that happened was when I squirted some WD40 onto the 2
> adjacent joints which are situated at the front of the manifold,
> - near side. The pipes seem to be breathers, - one from the
> coolant header tank and one from the oil -filler.
> Anyway, I squirted some WD40 onto the inlet-manifold end and the
> engine dropped revs from its normal 800 to appro 600/650.
> So, I tightened up those joints and went for a drive to see if it
> stayed the same. After approx 5 mins, the tickover crept back up
> to 800-ish again. However, whilst test-driving it and taking much
> more notice than in normal driving, I noticed that a lot of the
> problem could be to do with the fact that the engine revs don't
> drop (retard - I would call it), when you lift you foot off the
> accelerator. ie; after completing a gear-change, the revs are
> still high (but decreasing). This makes it very difficult to
> change up - or down, smoothly.
>
> Perhaps it's a symptom of the same problem?
>
> I discovered that it's impossible to see (never mind, check) the
> inlet manifold gasket. I suppose it's under there somewhere?
> Bloody V8s. They are a bit scary aren't they?

Nope, nice simple engine! ;-)
Just a thought, it sounds almost as if the throttle cable is adjusted too
tight, is there a bit of slack in both the throttle and cruise control
cables to allow the throttle to actually close fully?
Badger.

On Sat, 04 Nov 2006 19:31:02 +0000, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> wrote:

|On or around Sat, 04 Nov 2006 17:20:12 +0000, Howie
|<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
|
|>
|>I discovered that it's impossible to see (never mind, check) the
|>inlet manifold gasket. I suppose it's under there somewhere?
|>Bloody V8s. They are a bit scary aren't they?
|
|lovely engine. I forget which version you've got... but on the hotwire ones
|the idle-speed compensation thing seems to mean that it takes a while to
|drop back to proper idle sometimes.

Perhaps I just need to re-learn my gear-changing then. Certainly
more difficult than any car I've had.
I didn't know there were 2 types of V8s on the Disco II. Sorry if
I'm being a bit thick, but what does the 'hotwire' version mean?
Mine is a Jan 2000 model at 3950cc.

I've joined the Disco Owners Club and subscribe to LRO mag. So,
hopefully I will become a bit more knowledgable on my own vehicle
as time goes on!

H.

"Howie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Perhaps I just need to re-learn my gear-changing then. Certainly
> more difficult than any car I've had.
> I didn't know there were 2 types of V8s on the Disco II. Sorry if
> I'm being a bit thick, but what does the 'hotwire' version mean?
> Mine is a Jan 2000 model at 3950cc.


Disco II only has one type of injection system, the Bosch Motronic M.5.2.1
system.
The "Hotwire" is the Bosch-Lucas 14CUX system, and was fitted to all
Rangerover classic 3.9 and disco series 1 3.9 engines (and the early EFI 3.5
series 1 disco's), the predecessor to that being the "Flapper" Bosch-Lucas
4CU system as fitted to the early 3.5 EFI Rangerovers.
GEMS (Lucas-Sagem) was fitted to Rangerover P38 4.0 and 4.6 models up until
around '99, then they also got the Motronic system.
All Motronics are easily recognisable as the inlet manifold is a "bunch of
bananas" with the throttle body positioned to the front of the left hand
rocker cover (facing direction of travel), all earlier systems having a
large central rectangular plenum chamber with the throttle body centrally
mounted (lengthwise) to the left hand side.
Hotwire simply means that the air mass metering is done by measuring the
change in resistance caused by airflow over a heated wire element. Flapper
systems meter air by the airflow causing the deflection of a plate against a
spring. The Gems and Motronic type systems both utilise hotwire type mass
airflow sensing, but the Motronic is fully mapped with a constant fuel
supply pressure, whereas all other systems reference fuel pressure against
inlet manifold pressure (depression) as a means of load compensation. In
theory, metering of fuel is tighter controlled with the Motronic and
therefore emissions control is of improved accuracy, the main reason for the
changes over the years. Motronic and Gems both have features that allow
control of the ignition spark and timing (utilising knock sensors, and
having features such as ignition retard whilst changing gear on an auto for
smoother gearchanges), unlike their predecessors, but the Motronic takes
this one step further by having a constant misfire detection system - it
does this by calibrating itself to a series of drillings around the flywheel
and sensing a misfire by the minute change in rotational speed as a misfire
occurs causing a frequency change at the sensor which is monitoring the
passage of these drillings. All clever stuff, and done to meet OBD2
legislative protocols.
Badger.

On Sun, 5 Nov 2006 11:06:56 -0000, "Badger"
<[email protected]> wrote:

<big snip of V8 engine info>

Bloody 'ell. You know EVERYTHING.

Really interesting stuff. I've even printed it out and put it in
my land file (which is getting noticeably thicker week-by-week).

Thanks v much.