Kens proposed 4x4 ban

So our Ken, Mayor of London, is proposing some sort of ban on large,
polluting, gas guzzling 4x4's entering the city and seems to be receiving
some applause from various sections.
Whilst this would not affect most manufacturers much, e.g.Toyota would just
sell more cars, what effect would it have on Land Rover who don't make
anything else other than the aforementioned 4x4's?
Also, I wonder if a Defender van would be caught up in this too, I know two
workmen that use these in preference to a normal van.

Is it me, or are we no longer living in a democracy.

--
Regards
Bob

1974 LR S111 2.25 petrol "88" H/top
1987 LR 90 2.5 petrol H/top
2004 BMW330i Sport (the wife's)

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:28:12 +0100, "Bob Hobden" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>So our Ken, Mayor of London, is proposing some sort of ban on large,
>polluting, gas guzzling 4x4's entering the city and seems to be receiving
>some applause from various sections.
>Whilst this would not affect most manufacturers much, e.g.Toyota would just
>sell more cars, what effect would it have on Land Rover who don't make
>anything else other than the aforementioned 4x4's?
>Also, I wonder if a Defender van would be caught up in this too, I know two
>workmen that use these in preference to a normal van.
>
>Is it me, or are we no longer living in a democracy.

We stopped living in a democracy a long time ago. About the same time
we signed up to the common market, I think.

Alex

Couldn't I get round that by registering as a bus ?

And could he really ban any landie being used by a utility or for breakdown
recovery or any of the other multitude of legitimate uses, after all is my
landie worse than the ubiquitos white van ?

In any case I would just go out and buy an old bus just to spite the bugger.


--
þT

L'autisme c'est moi

"Space folds, and folded space bends, and bent folded space contracts and
expands unevenly in every way unconcievable except to someone who does not
believe in the laws of mathematics"



"Bob Hobden" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> So our Ken, Mayor of London, is proposing some sort of ban on large,
> polluting, gas guzzling 4x4's entering the city and seems to be receiving
> some applause from various sections.
> Whilst this would not affect most manufacturers much, e.g.Toyota would
just
> sell more cars, what effect would it have on Land Rover who don't make
> anything else other than the aforementioned 4x4's?
> Also, I wonder if a Defender van would be caught up in this too, I know
two
> workmen that use these in preference to a normal van.
>
> Is it me, or are we no longer living in a democracy.
>
> --
> Regards
> Bob
>
> 1974 LR S111 2.25 petrol "88" H/top
> 1987 LR 90 2.5 petrol H/top
> 2004 BMW330i Sport (the wife's)
>
>

All hypothetical of course as I usually travel to London by train


--
Larry
Series 3 rust and holes

"Larry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Couldn't I get round that by registering as a bus ?
>
> And could he really ban any landie being used by a utility or for
breakdown
> recovery or any of the other multitude of legitimate uses, after all is my
> landie worse than the ubiquitos white van ?
>
> In any case I would just go out and buy an old bus just to spite the
bugger.
>
>
> --
> þT
>
> L'autisme c'est moi
>
> "Space folds, and folded space bends, and bent folded space contracts and
> expands unevenly in every way unconcievable except to someone who does not
> believe in the laws of mathematics"
>
>

"Larry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Couldn't I get round that by registering as a bus ?

Ambulances don't pay the congestion charge either.
Rich

Ken is a right plonker,

I will confess what I do. I am a Reverend (Methodist) and live in the north
East. I have four chidlren and so need at least a six seater and if we are
going to carry the pram a seven seater. So I need a large vehicle.

Further complicated with this is the need to go out in any weather if I need
to visit one of my congregation, deal with someone who is dying or has died.
To go and visit a number of old people and to be able to use my Disco for
fishing (I sometimes have to go up some rather interestig tracks).

So is Ken and other politicians saying that when at the end of March I was
called out at 10 p.m. at night and it was snowing heavily (at least 4 inches
of snow on the road) with only me on the road in my landrover I should not
have gone out? So the old lady who was frightened of dying who I went and
spent an hour with, holding her hand, comforting her, this was not
legitimate. She died peacefully after I had read the 23rd Psalm to her.

I sometimes wonder if Ken and other politicians think through what they are
saying.

Is it Gwynneth Dunwoody who said all cars should be banned. Now come on what
happens when I get a call to the hospital at 3 a.m. as a little girl from my
congregation has had a bleed in her stomach and is dying. Should I wait for
a taxi (a bus , at 3 a.m.) or should I get there immediately. Or when a baby
is about to die and I need to baptise it in hospital.

These damn politicians are so insensitive.

I think Ken needs sectioning.

Andrew

"Alex" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:28:12 +0100, "Bob Hobden" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >So our Ken, Mayor of London, is proposing some sort of ban on large,
> >polluting, gas guzzling 4x4's entering the city and seems to be receiving
> >some applause from various sections.
> >Whilst this would not affect most manufacturers much, e.g.Toyota would
just
> >sell more cars, what effect would it have on Land Rover who don't make
> >anything else other than the aforementioned 4x4's?
> >Also, I wonder if a Defender van would be caught up in this too, I know
two
> >workmen that use these in preference to a normal van.
> >
> >Is it me, or are we no longer living in a democracy.
>
> We stopped living in a democracy a long time ago. About the same time
> we signed up to the common market, I think.
>
> Alex

Perhaps the good people of London should not have re-ellected him then !

Andy
SIII 109 12 Seat S/W (soon to be re-classified as a bus - well it is red
LOL)

"Andrew Renshaw" <andrew.hart.i hate [email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Ken is a right plonker,
>
> I will confess what I do. I am a Reverend (Methodist) and live in the
north
> East. I have four chidlren and so need at least a six seater and if we are
> going to carry the pram a seven seater. So I need a large vehicle.
>
> Further complicated with this is the need to go out in any weather if I
need
> to visit one of my congregation, deal with someone who is dying or has
died.
> To go and visit a number of old people and to be able to use my Disco for
> fishing (I sometimes have to go up some rather interestig tracks).
>
> So is Ken and other politicians saying that when at the end of March I was
> called out at 10 p.m. at night and it was snowing heavily (at least 4
inches
> of snow on the road) with only me on the road in my landrover I should not
> have gone out? So the old lady who was frightened of dying who I went and
> spent an hour with, holding her hand, comforting her, this was not
> legitimate. She died peacefully after I had read the 23rd Psalm to her.
>
> I sometimes wonder if Ken and other politicians think through what they
are
> saying.
>
> Is it Gwynneth Dunwoody who said all cars should be banned. Now come on
what
> happens when I get a call to the hospital at 3 a.m. as a little girl from
my
> congregation has had a bleed in her stomach and is dying. Should I wait
for
> a taxi (a bus , at 3 a.m.) or should I get there immediately. Or when a
baby
> is about to die and I need to baptise it in hospital.
>
> These damn politicians are so insensitive.
>
> I think Ken needs sectioning.
>
> Andrew
>
> "Alex" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:28:12 +0100, "Bob Hobden" <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >So our Ken, Mayor of London, is proposing some sort of ban on large,
> > >polluting, gas guzzling 4x4's entering the city and seems to be
receiving
> > >some applause from various sections.
> > >Whilst this would not affect most manufacturers much, e.g.Toyota would
> just
> > >sell more cars, what effect would it have on Land Rover who don't make
> > >anything else other than the aforementioned 4x4's?
> > >Also, I wonder if a Defender van would be caught up in this too, I know
> two
> > >workmen that use these in preference to a normal van.
> > >
> > >Is it me, or are we no longer living in a democracy.
> >
> > We stopped living in a democracy a long time ago. About the same time
> > we signed up to the common market, I think.
> >
> > Alex
>
>

> >
> >Is it me, or are we no longer living in a democracy.
>
> We stopped living in a democracy a long time ago. About the same time
> we signed up to the common market, I think.
>

We don't live in a democracy cos no one can be bothered to vote unless its
for big brother

The EU is a smokescreen - if you want really powerful organisations to blame
try the WTO and the IMF which have far mor effects on our lives and I don't
remember electing their members. While we argue about europe the wto attacks
legislation consumer safety legislation,workers rights, environmental
measures and wants the ability to sue governments for lost profits caused by
'restrictive' (their definition) legislation (including forcing us to import
and sell GM food without any form of labelling on it so that stops us
choosing not to use it

In a democracy our right to freedom has always been limited by the fact of
restrictions based on not harming others (thats whhy its illegal to kill
someone!) so we have to judge if the use of unsuitable vehicles in london is
a problem (that could well apply to sports cars and big engined vehicles
too), then that freedom may need to be reduced for the common good.

Note I am not backing either side on this but we must see the differences in
uses - if you live in a rural area then the use of a 4x4 may well be
desirable and nessesary, in a large city maybe not - Kens comments seem to
be aimed quite squarely at London use of 4x4's . Maybe the conjestion charge
should be higher for these types of vehicles. Are we willing to pay the
price to run our 4x4s ? As most eat more fuel and don't have lower roa tax
the answer is probabily yes.

Rich

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:28:12 +0100, "Bob Hobden" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Is it me, or are we no longer living in a democracy.

When _did_ we ever live in a true "democracy"?

Can you tell me any subject of any State who does?
The Americans p'raps?

We are all free to do exactly as we're told.

If you're not paranoid, you're not paying enough attention.


--
Some Land Roveresque (101 biased), links available
from: http://links.solis.co.uk/Geek/X4_Land_Rover/
I also have a little Land Rover site biased toward
my beloved 101 "Grumble", at: http://www.101fc.net


Reading this in 'alt.fan.landrover'? Did you know
there's a group FAQ: http://www.aflfaq.dyndns.info

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004 09:05:46 +0100, "Rich Clafton" <rclafton at
lineone.net> wrote:

>We don't live in a democracy cos no one can be bothered to vote unless its
>for big brother

People simply can't be bothers IMO, about anything - until it affects
them. Then it's too late...

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller


--
Some Land Roveresque (101 biased), links available
from: http://links.solis.co.uk/Geek/X4_Land_Rover/
I also have a little Land Rover site biased toward
my beloved 101 "Grumble", at: http://www.101fc.net


Reading this in 'alt.fan.landrover'? Did you know
there's a group FAQ: http://www.aflfaq.dyndns.info

On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 08:31:38 GMT, "Andy" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Perhaps the good people of London should not have re-ellected him then !

I've met him on a good number of occasions over the years. Like him
or loath him, he tells it the way he sees it. I prefer to see this in
any publicly elected representative rather than the spin and skim,
lies and simple overall fraud that is currently seen as 'politics'.

Tony Benn reckons that the current electoral system gives everyone the
ability to collectively sack their MP should they so desire. Ken once
wrote (also the title of his autobiography): "If voting changed
anything, they'd abolish it".


--
Some Land Roveresque (101 biased), links available
from: http://links.solis.co.uk/Geek/X4_Land_Rover/
I also have a little Land Rover site biased toward
my beloved 101 "Grumble", at: http://www.101fc.net


Reading this in 'alt.fan.landrover'? Did you know
there's a group FAQ: http://www.aflfaq.dyndns.info

Andrew Renshaw <andrew.hart.i hate [email protected]> wrote:
> Ken is a right plonker,

> I will confess what I do. I am a Reverend (Methodist) and live in the north
> East. I have four chidlren and so need at least a six seater and if we are
> going to carry the pram a seven seater. So I need a large vehicle.

> Further complicated with this is the need to go out in any weather if I need
> to visit one of my congregation, deal with someone who is dying or has died.
> To go and visit a number of old people and to be able to use my Disco for
> fishing (I sometimes have to go up some rather interestig tracks).

> So is Ken and other politicians saying that when at the end of March I was
> called out at 10 p.m. at night and it was snowing heavily (at least 4 inches
> of snow on the road) with only me on the road in my landrover I should not
> have gone out? So the old lady who was frightened of dying who I went and
> spent an hour with, holding her hand, comforting her, this was not
> legitimate. She died peacefully after I had read the 23rd Psalm to her.

> I sometimes wonder if Ken and other politicians think through what they are
> saying.

> Is it Gwynneth Dunwoody who said all cars should be banned. Now come on what
> happens when I get a call to the hospital at 3 a.m. as a little girl from my
> congregation has had a bleed in her stomach and is dying. Should I wait for
> a taxi (a bus , at 3 a.m.) or should I get there immediately. Or when a baby
> is about to die and I need to baptise it in hospital.

> These damn politicians are so insensitive.

> I think Ken needs sectioning.

Into halves or quarters ??.

> Andrew

> "Alex" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:28:12 +0100, "Bob Hobden" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >So our Ken, Mayor of London, is proposing some sort of ban on large,
>> >polluting, gas guzzling 4x4's entering the city and seems to be receiving
>> >some applause from various sections.
>> >Whilst this would not affect most manufacturers much, e.g.Toyota would
> just
>> >sell more cars, what effect would it have on Land Rover who don't make
>> >anything else other than the aforementioned 4x4's?
>> >Also, I wonder if a Defender van would be caught up in this too, I know
> two
>> >workmen that use these in preference to a normal van.
>> >
>> >Is it me, or are we no longer living in a democracy.
>>
>> We stopped living in a democracy a long time ago. About the same time
>> we signed up to the common market, I think.
>>
>> Alex



--

We were always told that a million monkeys typing for a million years
would eventually produce the works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the
Internet, we know this is not true.

"Mother" <"@ {mother} @"@101fc.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> When _did_ we ever live in a true "democracy"?
>
> Can you tell me any subject of any State who does?
> The Americans p'raps?

Of course. The greatest democracy in the world!

On the understanding that big 4x4's guzzle fuel, are big and heavy, low
miles to gallon. I propose we ban all big cars of same ilk eg. Bentley's,
Rollers, Jaguars ( or two ) etc. Won't half bugger up the ministerial perks
for the jerks ??

I seem to remember a time ago the term NIMBY was the in word, seems its
back. Wonder what school little Livinstone will go to ........... London
Oratory perhaps ??




> So our Ken, Mayor of London, is proposing some sort of ban on large,
> polluting, gas guzzling 4x4's entering the city and seems to be receiving
> some applause from various sections.
> Whilst this would not affect most manufacturers much, e.g.Toyota would
just
> sell more cars, what effect would it have on Land Rover who don't make
> anything else other than the aforementioned 4x4's?
> Also, I wonder if a Defender van would be caught up in this too, I know
two
> workmen that use these in preference to a normal van.
>
> Is it me, or are we no longer living in a democracy.

> Is it me, or are we no longer living in a democracy.

Blimey, what's one of them then ;-) ???

--
David.

110 CSW 300tdi.

In message <[email protected]>, Rich Clafton
<[email protected]> writes
>> >
>> >Is it me, or are we no longer living in a democracy.
>>
>> We stopped living in a democracy a long time ago. About the same time
>> we signed up to the common market, I think.
>>
>
>We don't live in a democracy cos no one can be bothered to vote unless its
>for big brother
>
>The EU is a smokescreen - if you want really powerful organisations to blame
>try the WTO and the IMF which have far mor effects on our lives and I don't
>remember electing their members. While we argue about europe the wto attacks
>legislation consumer safety legislation,workers rights, environmental
>measures and wants the ability to sue governments for lost profits caused by
>'restrictive' (their definition) legislation (including forcing us to import
>and sell GM food without any form of labelling on it so that stops us
>choosing not to use it
>
>In a democracy our right to freedom has always been limited by the fact of
>restrictions based on not harming others (thats whhy its illegal to kill
>someone!) so we have to judge if the use of unsuitable vehicles in london is
>a problem (that could well apply to sports cars and big engined vehicles
>too), then that freedom may need to be reduced for the common good.
>
>Note I am not backing either side on this but we must see the differences in
>uses - if you live in a rural area then the use of a 4x4 may well be
>desirable and nessesary, in a large city maybe not - Kens comments seem to
>be aimed quite squarely at London use of 4x4's . Maybe the conjestion charge
>should be higher for these types of vehicles. Are we willing to pay the
>price to run our 4x4s ? As most eat more fuel and don't have lower roa tax
>the answer is probabily yes.
>
>Rich
>
>
On what basis should we pay more for 4 wheel drive?

Engine size? OK so that applies to several cars - Rolls Royce, Bentley,
some Mercs, Jags etc etc What about small 4x4s - Suzukis, Series LR.
Defender diesels are only 2.5 litres compared to some diesel cars.

Footprint - no bigger than many cars.

Emissions - company car tax system is now based on emission so the
bigger, dirtier the engine the higher the tax

Fuel consumption - the more fuel you use the more fuel tax and vat you
pay, and that is a very high proportion of the actual fuel charge.

Risk to pedestrians? The biggest danger to them arises from the standard
bumper height introduced by the motor manufacturers in the 1950s long
before safety figured in their thinking and unfortunately the height
they chose is about he worst possible. A 4x4 would naturally have a
higher bumper height which would be less damaging if not artificially
lowered to comply with this standard.

Height - as suggested in the Guardian this week? Well, Ken should visit
the M6 Toll booths and see that a Landrover is classified as a car
whereas an MPV, being higher is classed as a van.

4 wheel drive? That is an option on Transit vans ( and others), Renault
Espace etc, and, oh yes, not forgetting the Lada. And what if you have
2/4 wheel drive like a series LR, Jeep Cherokee/Ford Ranger etc? Yes you
can bring it in to London provided you keep it in 2 wheel drive?

This move is just a distraction to draw attention away from his other
transport problems - not that it worries me - I wouldn't want to go near
the dirty stinking place let alone drive in it.
--
hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting

Just like Land Rover, excellent at the start then all the bits start to fall
of so it has to be propped up by enthusiasts ........ then along comes Ford
and buggers it all up




> > Is it me, or are we no longer living in a democracy.
>
> Blimey, what's one of them then ;-) ???
>

"hugh" wrote in message
> On what basis should we pay more for 4 wheel drive?
>
> Engine size? OK so that applies to several cars - Rolls Royce, Bentley,
> some Mercs, Jags etc etc What about small 4x4s - Suzukis, Series LR.
> Defender diesels are only 2.5 litres compared to some diesel cars.
>
> Footprint - no bigger than many cars.
>
> Emissions - company car tax system is now based on emission so the
> bigger, dirtier the engine the higher the tax
>
> Fuel consumption - the more fuel you use the more fuel tax and vat you
> pay, and that is a very high proportion of the actual fuel charge.
>
> Risk to pedestrians? The biggest danger to them arises from the standard
> bumper height introduced by the motor manufacturers in the 1950s long
> before safety figured in their thinking and unfortunately the height
> they chose is about he worst possible. A 4x4 would naturally have a
> higher bumper height which would be less damaging if not artificially
> lowered to comply with this standard.
>
> Height - as suggested in the Guardian this week? Well, Ken should visit
> the M6 Toll booths and see that a Landrover is classified as a car
> whereas an MPV, being higher is classed as a van.
>
> 4 wheel drive? That is an option on Transit vans ( and others), Renault
> Espace etc, and, oh yes, not forgetting the Lada. And what if you have
> 2/4 wheel drive like a series LR, Jeep Cherokee/Ford Ranger etc? Yes you
> can bring it in to London provided you keep it in 2 wheel drive?
>
> This move is just a distraction to draw attention away from his other
> transport problems - not that it worries me - I wouldn't want to go near
> the dirty stinking place let alone drive in it.
> --

My understanding is that Ken wants 4x4's banned in London and others,
especially some Lib Dems, want a ban on the School Run nationwide. How they
intend to legislate that beggars belief and may well show up their ignorance
of the types of vehicles involved.
i.e. how about an Audi TT Quattro, would that be banned? It's certainly 4x4.
If they do it on size then most MPV's would also be caught, and how about
the rich kid in the Roller or the poor kid in the old Granada smoker.
I reckon it would be almost impossible to legislate for and to police.

The answer is more school buses together with proper car parking at or near
the schools, and education of parents, but that's the positive approach and
politicians aren't ever into that 'cause it costs money instead of bringing
more in.

Interestingly, as an example of how a politician thinks, I believe it's the
French that intend to have a special extra £2,500 Purchase Tax on 4x4's.

My original question was on the effect that sort of thing will have on Land
Rover who make nothing other than 4x4's.
A LR car perhaps.

--
Regards
Bob

1974 LR S111 2.25 petrol "88" H/top
1987 LR 90 2.5 petrol H/top
2004 BMW330i Sport (the wife's)

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 23:28:12 +0100, "Bob Hobden" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>So our Ken, Mayor of London, is proposing some sort of ban on large,
>polluting, gas guzzling 4x4's entering the city and seems to be receiving
>some applause from various sections.

But give him a few F1 cars, and he is planning his first race..

Just think of the charges for every truck the teams bring in, the two
race cars plus the spare, the safety cars.
Dammit, why not slap a charge on the little tractors that pick up the
jordans after the engine goes!!

D

In message <[email protected]>, Bob Hobden <[email protected]>
writes
<snip>
>Interestingly, as an example of how a politician thinks, I believe it's the
>French that intend to have a special extra £2,500 Purchase Tax on 4x4's.
<Snip>
A typical Chirac move - guess which countries automotive manufacturers
do not actually build any 4x4's (how I hate the term SUV). Just means
the French will order them from Belgian dealers.
--
hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting