I just got a Landie

A Y-Reg Series3 88" to be precise.

The circumstances of this were a little odd.

I was driving home from Milton Keynes, land of the concrete cow, and came
across a S3 broadside on on a busy bit of road.

Being a nice Landie owner, I pulled on to the verge and asked if I could
help.

Turned out that the guy had been pootling down the road when suddenly the
car had felt like it was going into a skid and the steering became
unresponsive, and once it had stopped spinning he couldn't get it to move
under its own power.

I was in my Disco, but had unfortunately offloaded most of the recovery kit
I normally carry as I needed the space - no tow ropes or hi-lifts for me
today!

Fortunately I still had the 10k lb winch on the front bumper, so we hooked
my winch line to his towball in the absence of a better recovery point and
started to haul away.

And the back wheels bounced. Didn't turn - locked solid.

Anyway, after around 3 minutes we'd managed to get it into the side of the
road and the mans wife was walking home (4 miles) with the dogs because she
was never going to get back into that car again. The man himself was
sitting there shaking and muttering "I'm going to scrap it".

Chancing my arm I said "Don't scrap it, give it to me". "Are you sure?" was
the response. "Yes" said I.

Anyway, the traffic police arrived and started putting out flags and signs
and called the recovery company to come and get it so I set off home,
thinking no more of it.

2 minutes after I get in I get a phone call.

"Hi it's <S3 owners name> - where are you - I'm with the recovery truck and
we're coming to drop this car off"

At the end of the day, I paid the recovery fee (£180) and got a nice S3
landie out of the deal.

Now all I need to do is fix it.

P.
--
If Mind over Matter is a Matter of Course
Does it Matter if Nobody Minds?

Paul S. Brown wrote:

> A Y-Reg Series3 88" to be precise.
>
> The circumstances of this were a little odd.
>
> I was driving home from Milton Keynes, land of the concrete cow, and came
> across a S3 broadside on on a busy bit of road.
>
> Being a nice Landie owner, I pulled on to the verge and asked if I could
> help.
>
> Turned out that the guy had been pootling down the road when suddenly the
> car had felt like it was going into a skid and the steering became
> unresponsive, and once it had stopped spinning he couldn't get it to move
> under its own power.
>
> I was in my Disco, but had unfortunately offloaded most of the recovery
> kit I normally carry as I needed the space - no tow ropes or hi-lifts for
> me today!
>
> Fortunately I still had the 10k lb winch on the front bumper, so we hooked
> my winch line to his towball in the absence of a better recovery point and
> started to haul away.
>
> And the back wheels bounced. Didn't turn - locked solid.
>
> Anyway, after around 3 minutes we'd managed to get it into the side of the
> road and the mans wife was walking home (4 miles) with the dogs because
> she was never going to get back into that car again. The man himself was
> sitting there shaking and muttering "I'm going to scrap it".
>
> Chancing my arm I said "Don't scrap it, give it to me". "Are you sure?"
> was the response. "Yes" said I.
>
> Anyway, the traffic police arrived and started putting out flags and signs
> and called the recovery company to come and get it so I set off home,
> thinking no more of it.
>
> 2 minutes after I get in I get a phone call.
>
> "Hi it's <S3 owners name> - where are you - I'm with the recovery truck
> and we're coming to drop this car off"
>
> At the end of the day, I paid the recovery fee (£180) and got a nice S3
> landie out of the deal.
>
> Now all I need to do is fix it.
>


Any ideas what would cause a S3 to lock the wheels completely - they just
won't turn - my guess is that the handbrake may have welded itself on, or
something catastrophic in either the gearbox or transfer box.

If you stick the car in gear, rev it and then let the clutch out you get
torque effects from the drive train - the entire car tries to twist.

The front wheels still move, but that's because the FWHs are released.

P.
--
If Mind over Matter is a Matter of Course
Does it Matter if Nobody Minds?

"Paul S. Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

> If you stick the car in gear, rev it and then let the clutch out you get
> torque effects from the drive train - the entire car tries to twist.
>
> The front wheels still move, but that's because the FWHs are released.
>
> P.
> --
> If Mind over Matter is a Matter of Course
> Does it Matter if Nobody Minds?

Is the front diff screwed? Stick it in 4wd mode & remove the front propshaft. If it's the diff you'll be
able to tell & likewise, if it's the gearbox etc, you can tell then as it wont move anything after the
gearbox etc.

Nige

Paul S. Brown wrote:

> A Y-Reg Series3 88" to be precise.
>
> The circumstances of this were a little odd.
>
> I was driving home from Milton Keynes, land of the concrete cow, and came
> across a S3 broadside on on a busy bit of road.
>
> Being a nice Landie owner, I pulled on to the verge and asked if I could
> help.
>
> Turned out that the guy had been pootling down the road when suddenly the
> car had felt like it was going into a skid and the steering became
> unresponsive, and once it had stopped spinning he couldn't get it to move
> under its own power.
>
> I was in my Disco, but had unfortunately offloaded most of the recovery kit
> I normally carry as I needed the space - no tow ropes or hi-lifts for me
> today!
>
> Fortunately I still had the 10k lb winch on the front bumper, so we hooked
> my winch line to his towball in the absence of a better recovery point and
> started to haul away.
>
> And the back wheels bounced. Didn't turn - locked solid.
>
> Anyway, after around 3 minutes we'd managed to get it into the side of the
> road and the mans wife was walking home (4 miles) with the dogs because she
> was never going to get back into that car again. The man himself was
> sitting there shaking and muttering "I'm going to scrap it".
>
> Chancing my arm I said "Don't scrap it, give it to me". "Are you sure?" was
> the response. "Yes" said I.
>
> Anyway, the traffic police arrived and started putting out flags and signs
> and called the recovery company to come and get it so I set off home,
> thinking no more of it.
>
> 2 minutes after I get in I get a phone call.
>
> "Hi it's <S3 owners name> - where are you - I'm with the recovery truck and
> we're coming to drop this car off"
>
> At the end of the day, I paid the recovery fee (£180) and got a nice S3
> landie out of the deal.
>
> Now all I need to do is fix it.

Might the emergency brake have somehow locked up?

Seems I might remember it works off the driveshaft.

If that's not it, I reckon the final drive has locked.

-Rock http://www.rocky-frisco.com
--
Rocky Frisco's LIBERTY website: http://www.liberty-in-our-time.com/
World's best free News Service: http://www.rationalreview.com/news/

>>
>> And the back wheels bounced. Didn't turn - locked solid.
>>
>
>Any ideas what would cause a S3 to lock the wheels completely - they just
>won't turn - my guess is that the handbrake may have welded itself on, or
>something catastrophic in either the gearbox or transfer box.
>
>If you stick the car in gear, rev it and then let the clutch out you get
>torque effects from the drive train - the entire car tries to twist.
>
>The front wheels still move, but that's because the FWHs are released.
>

There's three possible explanations.

1. Rear hubs have friction welded themselves on. In this case it will
prove impossible to turn the rear wheels at all, even with removing
the drive flanges from the rear wheels.

2. Diff has broken/locked/disentegrated. Jack the rear end up, if you
can turn one wheel whilst the other one rotates the opposite way, then
this is a distinct possibility.

3. Handbrake/gearbox problem. Remove the rear propshaft and see if you
can get the output shaft to turn.

I'd rekon a problem with the diff is the most likely.

Alex

Alex wrote:

>
>>>
>>> And the back wheels bounced. Didn't turn - locked solid.
>>>
>>
>>Any ideas what would cause a S3 to lock the wheels completely - they just
>>won't turn - my guess is that the handbrake may have welded itself on, or
>>something catastrophic in either the gearbox or transfer box.
>>
>>If you stick the car in gear, rev it and then let the clutch out you get
>>torque effects from the drive train - the entire car tries to twist.
>>
>>The front wheels still move, but that's because the FWHs are released.
>>
>
> There's three possible explanations.
>
> 1. Rear hubs have friction welded themselves on. In this case it will
> prove impossible to turn the rear wheels at all, even with removing
> the drive flanges from the rear wheels.
>
> 2. Diff has broken/locked/disentegrated. Jack the rear end up, if you
> can turn one wheel whilst the other one rotates the opposite way, then
> this is a distinct possibility.
>
> 3. Handbrake/gearbox problem. Remove the rear propshaft and see if you
> can get the output shaft to turn.
>
> I'd rekon a problem with the diff is the most likely.
>

Seems most likely - rear diff seems to be good.

Any idea how difficult the diff is to replace on one of these?

P.
--
If Mind over Matter is a Matter of Course
Does it Matter if Nobody Minds?

Paul S. Brown wrote:
>
> Any idea how difficult the diff is to replace on one of these?

Really easy.

Chock the wheels securely. Drain the diff oil. Remove the 6 bolts
around each drive flange and withdraw the half shafts. Remove the rear
propshaft. Undo the bolts holding the diff head into the housing. Pull
out the diff head - watch out it's *heavy*. Reassembly is the reverse
of removal.


--
EMB

EMB wrote:

> Paul S. Brown wrote:
>>
>> Any idea how difficult the diff is to replace on one of these?
>
> Really easy.
>
> Chock the wheels securely. Drain the diff oil. Remove the 6 bolts
> around each drive flange and withdraw the half shafts. Remove the rear
> propshaft. Undo the bolts holding the diff head into the housing. Pull
> out the diff head - watch out it's *heavy*. Reassembly is the reverse
> of removal.
>
>

Just a thought - series motors don't actually have a center diff, do they?

I'm working on the basis that something, somewhere in the transmission has
hopelessly seized.

I'll try dropping the propshaft off the back of the handbrake tomorrow and
see if the back wheels are still free - try and dismantle the handbrake
after that and following that drop the propshaft off the front diff.

At that point, if the transmission is still jammed solid I'm guessing it's a
gearbox and T-Box strip down which I'm not sure I have the kit for at the
moment.

P.
--
If Mind over Matter is a Matter of Course
Does it Matter if Nobody Minds?

>>> Any idea how difficult the diff is to replace on one of these?
>>
>> Really easy.
>>
>> Chock the wheels securely. Drain the diff oil. Remove the 6 bolts
>> around each drive flange and withdraw the half shafts. Remove the rear
>> propshaft. Undo the bolts holding the diff head into the housing. Pull
>> out the diff head - watch out it's *heavy*. Reassembly is the reverse
>> of removal.
>>

>Just a thought - series motors don't actually have a center diff, do they?
>
>I'm working on the basis that something, somewhere in the transmission has
>hopelessly seized.
>
>I'll try dropping the propshaft off the back of the handbrake tomorrow and
>see if the back wheels are still free - try and dismantle the handbrake
>after that and following that drop the propshaft off the front diff.
>
>At that point, if the transmission is still jammed solid I'm guessing it's a
>gearbox and T-Box strip down which I'm not sure I have the kit for at the
>moment.
>

No, no centre diff on a Series, just a dog clutch for 4wd. drop the
prop off the back, that'll at least tell you wether you're looking at
axle or gearbox. If it's gearbox then you might just as well look
around for a replacement (2nd hand) than try and rebuild it. You need
a fair amount of kit - presses etc to rebuild a gearbox, and a stack
of parts as well.

Alex

"Alex" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >>> Any idea how difficult the diff is to replace on one of these?
> >>
> >> Really easy.
> >>
> >> Chock the wheels securely. Drain the diff oil. Remove the 6 bolts
> >> around each drive flange and withdraw the half shafts. Remove the rear
> >> propshaft. Undo the bolts holding the diff head into the housing.
Pull
> >> out the diff head - watch out it's *heavy*. Reassembly is the reverse
> >> of removal.
> >>
>
> >Just a thought - series motors don't actually have a center diff, do
they?
> >
> >I'm working on the basis that something, somewhere in the transmission
has
> >hopelessly seized.
> >
> >I'll try dropping the propshaft off the back of the handbrake tomorrow
and
> >see if the back wheels are still free - try and dismantle the handbrake
> >after that and following that drop the propshaft off the front diff.
> >
> >At that point, if the transmission is still jammed solid I'm guessing
it's a
> >gearbox and T-Box strip down which I'm not sure I have the kit for at the
> >moment.
> >
>
> No, no centre diff on a Series, just a dog clutch for 4wd. drop the
> prop off the back, that'll at least tell you wether you're looking at
> axle or gearbox. If it's gearbox then you might just as well look
> around for a replacement (2nd hand) than try and rebuild it. You need
> a fair amount of kit - presses etc to rebuild a gearbox, and a stack
> of parts as well.
>
Its not the gearbox.
If you are getting a torque reaction when you try to set off (the car trying
to twist) you must be getting force out of the gearbox to the axle.
Most likely buggered diff.

On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 21:15:54 +0000, "Paul S. Brown"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>EMB wrote:
>
>> Paul S. Brown wrote:
>>>
>>> Any idea how difficult the diff is to replace on one of these?
>>
>> Really easy.
>>
>> Chock the wheels securely. Drain the diff oil. Remove the 6 bolts
>> around each drive flange and withdraw the half shafts. Remove the rear
>> propshaft. Undo the bolts holding the diff head into the housing. Pull
>> out the diff head - watch out it's *heavy*. Reassembly is the reverse
>> of removal.
>>
>>
>
>Just a thought - series motors don't actually have a center diff, do they?
>
>I'm working on the basis that something, somewhere in the transmission has
>hopelessly seized.
>
>I'll try dropping the propshaft off the back of the handbrake tomorrow and
>see if the back wheels are still free - try and dismantle the handbrake
>after that and following that drop the propshaft off the front diff.
>
>At that point, if the transmission is still jammed solid I'm guessing it's a
>gearbox and T-Box strip down which I'm not sure I have the kit for at the
>moment.

From what you are saying, it sounds like you might be slightly
confused about the series drivetrain. (apolgies if you arnt, but i get
that impression from your posts!)

You have no centre diff, just the diff in each axle.
When the landy is in 2WD (yellow knob up+red lever forwards), only the
rear axle is driven. The front prop should not be turning
You have free wheeling hubs. If they are unlocked, then no problem
with the front diff should cause the vehicle to be unmovable. Removing
the front prop would be pointless (until youve checked the back axle
and eliminated that).
On a normal fully working landy, if you remove the rear prop, and then
put it in 4wd/low range with the front hubs locked, you will be able
to drive it.

You say that the back diff seems good. how have you tested it?

You would be better off to first remove the rear prop and see if you
can turn a wheel when the back is jacked up, just the check if the
diff is locked up. Try turning the diff via the prop too.

The diff on my mates landy blew up, and the gears inside arranged
themselves such that the diff would not turn atall, this gave a
similarily immovable vehicle to yours - We removed the rear prop and
halfshafts, and then it was drivable in 4WD (and the front hubs
locked)

It sounds like it will keep you out of trouble for a while!

On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 19:35:15 +0000, in article
<[email protected]> [email protected]
"Paul S. Brown" wrote:

> > I'd rekon a problem with the diff is the most likely.
> >
>
> Seems most likely - rear diff seems to be good.
>
> Any idea how difficult the diff is to replace on one of these?

Depends on the diff type. A Rover diff is spanner and awkward lifting.
The Salisbury diff (on some models) needs a special tool to stretch the
diff housing.


--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"History shows that the Singularity started when Sir Tim Berners-Lee
was bitten by a radioactive spider."

David G. Bell wrote:

> Depends on the diff type. A Rover diff is spanner and awkward lifting.
> The Salisbury diff (on some models) needs a special tool to stretch the
> diff housing.

The first post in this thread states that it's an 88" so a salisbury is
*very* unlikely.


--
EMB

OK,

I've just been crawling under this car and so far have got:

Removed handbrake drum - no win - it still won't go - not the handbrake
though.

Jacked the rear and spun the wheels - the diff allows the wheels to spin
against each other.

Jacked the front and spun the wheels (with the FWH locked) - the diff allows
the wheels to spin against each other.

Now, when I run the engine against whatever the block is, I get the
gearstick leaning a little to the right, which seems to suggest a torque
effect - given how little this effect is, would it be a sensible bet to
assume the front diff is buggered on the input shaft?

Also, how the heck do you drop a propshaft off one of these (SWB S3) - I can
see four nuts on the drive flange at each end of each propshaft, but I
can't see how to get any tool into them - is there a Z shaped spanner to
use for this or something?

P.
--
If Mind over Matter is a Matter of Course
Does it Matter if Nobody Minds?

On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 17:09:34 +0000, "Paul S. Brown"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>OK,
>
>I've just been crawling under this car and so far have got:
>
>Removed handbrake drum - no win - it still won't go - not the handbrake
>though.
>
>Jacked the rear and spun the wheels - the diff allows the wheels to spin
>against each other.
>Jacked the front and spun the wheels (with the FWH locked) - the diff allows
>the wheels to spin against each other.
>
>Now, when I run the engine against whatever the block is, I get the
>gearstick leaning a little to the right, which seems to suggest a torque
>effect - given how little this effect is, would it be a sensible bet to
>assume the front diff is buggered on the input shaft?

Front diff? I thought the problem was with the rear? Pull the red
lever back, lift the yellow knob up if the spring is broken and push
the red lever forward. This will reset the box to 2wd. You should now
be able to turn the front prop from underneath with one of the front
wheels jacked up. Perform the same test at the back by engaging
neutral in the xfer box (red lever to middle position) If either of
these props won't turn with a wheel jacked up then the problem it most
likely in the diff, but you'll have to drop the rear prop to confirm
that it isn't the gearbox.

>
>Also, how the heck do you drop a propshaft off one of these (SWB S3) - I can
>see four nuts on the drive flange at each end of each propshaft, but I
>can't see how to get any tool into them - is there a Z shaped spanner to
>use for this or something?

You can remove a prop with two 9/16" spanners. Open ended on the bolt,
ring will fit on the nut. If there isn't enough clearance to get a rin
on then rotate the prop 90degrees, the spaces between the yokes aren't
equal. Except the front end of the rear, you have to remove the
handbrake drum first, and this one will probably require a socket and
extension - 3/8" drive is best, as 1/2" drive is a bit big. Failing
that, get a proper propshaft socket from a tool suppliers.

If this is really getting a problem, then I suggest you consult
someone local who knows about Series vehicles, I have a suspicion that
you havn't worked on them before.

Alex

Alex wrote:

>
> Front diff? I thought the problem was with the rear? Pull the red
> lever back, lift the yellow knob up if the spring is broken and push
> the red lever forward. This will reset the box to 2wd. You should now
> be able to turn the front prop from underneath with one of the front
> wheels jacked up. Perform the same test at the back by engaging
> neutral in the xfer box (red lever to middle position) If either of
> these props won't turn with a wheel jacked up then the problem it most
> likely in the diff, but you'll have to drop the rear prop to confirm
> that it isn't the gearbox.

The problem was that the rear wheels had locked, however the front wheels
had the freewheel hubs in the free position, so they couldn't lock if they
tried.


> If this is really getting a problem, then I suggest you consult
> someone local who knows about Series vehicles, I have a suspicion that
> you havn't worked on them before.

You'd be dead right on that one. All of my previous experience has been with
RRCs and S1 and S2 Discoveries - the Series motors are a bit different.

I'm not desperate on this one - this car is something I acquired with my
eyes open knowing damn well that it was a problem - I'm treating it as a
learning experience.

With a bit of luck I'll shut up when the HBOL I bought on eBay last night
turns up.

Thanks for the help though.

P.

--
If Mind over Matter is a Matter of Course
Does it Matter if Nobody Minds?

On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 18:00:25 +0000, "Paul S. Brown"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I'm not desperate on this one - this car is something I acquired with my
>eyes open knowing damn well that it was a problem - I'm treating it as a
>learning experience.

Just a quick question...

Have you got the V5 or a receipt?

Be a shame to do all that work and, erm, the original owner tries to
say he'd only lent it to you...

Mother wrote:

> On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 18:00:25 +0000, "Paul S. Brown"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I'm not desperate on this one - this car is something I acquired with my
>>eyes open knowing damn well that it was a problem - I'm treating it as a
>>learning experience.
>
> Just a quick question...
>
> Have you got the V5 or a receipt?
>
> Be a shame to do all that work and, erm, the original owner tries to
> say he'd only lent it to you...

I've got the V5, and a witness - who happened to be the traffic cop
attending the original fault.

Just been under it again.

With one side jacked - zero movement on the rear propshaft - not even as
much as would be allowed by slack in the drivetrain or UJs.

The front propshaft turns a couple of degrees with the car in 4WD.

I'm going to take the rear prop off tomorrow, but it's looking like a
shagged rear diff at the moment - here's hoping.

Now all I have to do is find somewhere with a replacement S3 rear diff - my
normal source is all sold out due to Old Sodbury a week ago.

P.

Deciding that he quite likes Series motors to work on, if he could just
figure out what damn sizing system they use - it ain't metric and it
doesn't appear to be any variant of imperial I have in my toolkit.


--
If Mind over Matter is a Matter of Course
Does it Matter if Nobody Minds?

On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 18:37:20 +0000, "Paul S. Brown"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Deciding that he quite likes Series motors to work on, if he could just
>figure out what damn sizing system they use - it ain't metric and it
>doesn't appear to be any variant of imperial I have in my toolkit.

You'll find it's a real mix no doubt, mine was/is.

When you've had the props off, remember to use new nyloc nuts (and get
UNF not UNC...) when you come to replace them.

Paul S. Brown wrote:

> Deciding that he quite likes Series motors to work on, if he could just
> figure out what damn sizing system they use - it ain't metric and it
> doesn't appear to be any variant of imperial I have in my toolkit.

There's still a bit of Whitworth sizing on some Series wagons.


--
EMB