HID Kit on TD5 Facelift Legal?

nathan5346 said:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/technicalpenpicture3-lighting.pdf

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We have been through this, the information there has been changed as far as the MOT test goes, the advice given to testers differs to include already converted vehicles. I can only imagine the reason it isnt publicised widely is to try and stop further conversions. As from 2012 vehicles must have the systems installed, before that its a case of if fitted they are tested, if not its pass and advise. I haven't made the rules, I am just telling you guys what the MOT test will take into account.

I guess the bottom line is if you dont think the MOT manual is correct then simply dont do the conversion, if however you are asking a VT for a definitive ruling on what is passable then yes, converted cars without washers/leveling systems will pass with an advisory. This doesnt include vehicles from 2012 onwards but its 3 years till we shall see these vehicles in for MOT (except some taxi's/official vehicles)

Something I will add which hasn't really been mentioned is beam pattern. Different cars get the pattern different ways, via the lense, reflector or both. HID bulb only conversions dont always give a beam pattern so could well fail an MOT on this. Also the colour 'may' fall into disrepute on some of the kits out there, I have seen rainbow kits and the like advertised before. If you have converted via the complete headlight (which many people do) then this wont be a problem.

wow.. lot of info in such a short space of time.. I never intended my question to kick off into a riot
..good debate though!, I have the lads in the garage at work looking into this as well.

Seems that this topic has confused a lot of people, myself included.

By what your alll saying, to get a disco II HID conversion would be legal with washers fitted and working, but the beam pattern may fall foul of the law..

If thats the case, what headlamp units would be required to make them legal? (exactly what should I be looking at replacing.. something tells me it could start getting expensive)

Found this and it's pretty recent.. Advise needed on HID light conversion - TorqueCars car forums It also agrees wioth everything I've said on the thread..

I'm still waiting for upto date proof that the new mot won't faill cars fitted with HIDs but not self levelling or washers..

UKAirborne said:

If thats the case, what headlamp units would be required to make them legal? (exactly what should I be looking at replacing.. something tells me it could start getting expensive)

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don't know about the units but unless yu have the washers and selflevelling suspension no units will make em legal..

my 2001 vectra with hid conversion and no washers or leveling devices has just passed the test, beam pattern was spot on too..tester commented on what a professional looking kit it was too. properly installed with grommets and stuff.





mind you i do work for the aforementioned garage..lol but he did say it was a pass and advise as it had no washers and leveling bits fitted. he has just done a refresher in leeds 2 weeks ago too.

My BMW is fitted with hid and it past mot last week, tester didnt even look at the washers or self levelers he said only need to do that on 2012 cars

Sent from my ARCHOS 80G9 using Tapatalk

mad mechanic said:

my 2001 vectra with hid conversion and no washers or leveling devices has just passed the test, beam pattern was spot on too..tester commented on what a professional looking kit it was too. properly installed with grommets and stuff.


mind you i do work for the aforementioned garage..lol but he did say it was a pass and advise as it had no washers and leveling bits fitted. he has just done a refresher in leeds 2 weeks ago too.

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Yep, thats the ruling, its a pass and advise, glad someone can understand what im saying here...

ccrdave said:

My BMW is fitted with hid and it past mot last week, tester didnt even look at the washers or self levelers he said only need to do that on 2012 cars

Sent from my ARCHOS 80G9 using Tapatalk

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Pretty much correct, its a case of if fitted then its a testable item. All vehicles from 2012 with HID lights MUST have the system.

redhand said:

Found this and it's pretty recent.. Advise needed on HID light conversion - TorqueCars car forums It also agrees wioth everything I've said on the thread..

I'm still waiting for upto date proof that the new mot won't faill cars fitted with HIDs but not self levelling or washers..

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Erm, what are you reading on that thread? Apart from the fact they have used the same MOT manual guidelines to state the fact it will be an MOT pass I cant see any relevence to this thread.

As for up to date proof, what do you think I have been posting on here already? The MOT manual is the definitive answer to what does and doesn't pass the MOT, you cant argue with it, it is the final word on the matter (as was posted on that link you have added)

I get the feeling you are just looking for an argument, either that or you one of these people who can never be wrong, doesn't matter what its about but you have to be right. I get this from alot of the other threads you reply to on here and it seems im not alone, it would seem you just enjoy the arguments, you must be a barrel of laughs down the pub....

:hijacked:

Whilst we're "discussing" lights and MOT's etc, can someone enlighten me what the rules are about front fog lights?? One of mine is currently held in place with a cable tie, and point nowhere near where it is supposed to.

Many thanks

Erazmus said:

:hijacked:

Whilst we're "discussing" lights and MOT's etc, can someone enlighten me what the rules are about front fog lights?? One of mine is currently held in place with a cable tie, and point nowhere near where it is supposed to.

Many thanks

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I had a knackered one at my last MOT, and asked the position on them - was told they are not part of the MOT, just the rear fog light.

My way of fixing it was to cut off the bottom half of the bumper - as they are useless at the best of times.....

But on the HID front, easy solution is to put in the standard bulb for the test, and then switch back to the HID afterwards - a bit of a faff yes, but means no worrying about pass/fail/advisory.......

Cheers Stu,

That's one less thing to worry about for the MOT.

:focus:

But that was last March - a lot has happened since then....better be safe and cut off the bumper valance

on my travels today.I was pulled over by Vosa. I pass one of the place they use often so I often get pulled in for a tank dip. but they where more intrested in my lights. though they not dip my tank as usual as im have petrol engine.

he was looking to see if i had HIDs fitted as my 4x4 has 12 spot lights all yellow tinted
this confused a younger lads checking.the senior guy told them it was ok but I asked why they checking for HID. he told me if i had them i would get an advisory to change them as I dont have any washers of self leveling.

dwabbit said:

he told me if i had them i would get an advisory to change them as I dont have any washers of self leveling.

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So that was from a VOSA roadside inspection, well he has said exactly what I have said, its an advisory and not a failure. They donw really want people to have HID bulbs but they cant just outlaw something at the drop of a hat when thousands of people already have the conversions...

Dicovery maniac said:

already asked about 300tdi but was just wondering if the TD5 facelift model can have HID kits on them do they shine correctly?

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You must have self leveling suspension and headlight washers, if not, no you can't.

Also, HID kits are now an MOT fail and quite rightly so because all these idiots go about blinding us now with kits fitted to vehicles that shouldn't have them.

Also, basically the only way to comply with the text below is to fit new headlights designed to work with a metal halide lamp, have SLS and washers.



It is not legal to sell or use after market HID lighting kits, for converting conventional Halogen headlamps to HID Xenon. If a customer wants to convert his vehicle to Xenon HID he must purchase completely new Xenon HID headlamps. The reason for this is that the existing lens and reflector are designed around a Halogen filament bulb, working to very precise tolerances. If one places a HID "burner" (bulb) in the headlamp, the beam pattern will not be correct, there will be glare in some places and not enough light in other places within the beam pattern.
The following is the legal rationale:
The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 regulate the situation in the UK.
Under these Regulations, HID/Gas Discharge/Xenon headlamps are not mentioned and therefore they are not permitted according to the strict letter of the law.
However new vehicles have HID headlamps. This is because they comply to European type approval Regulations. The UK cannot refuse to register a vehicle with a European type approval. These are to ECE Regulation 98 (for the HID headlamps which are tested on a rig in a laboratory) and ECE Regulation 48 (Lighting Installation on the vehicle).
For the after market, a used vehicle cannot obtain type approval because it is only applicable for new vehicles. However we feel that saying "HID is banned in the after market" would not be reasonable. Instead we should make analogies with new vehicles. It would be reasonable to require HID in the after market to meet the same safety standards as on new vehicles. The same level of safety should apply.
Therefore a HID headlamp unit sold in the after market should:
1. be type approved to ECE Regulation 98 as a component.
2. when fitted to the vehicle should enable ECE Regulation 48 to be complied with (although no government inspection will take place).
3. Comply with RVLR as far as "use" is concerned.
In practice this means:
1. The headlamp unit (outer lens, reflector, bulb) shall be type approved to ECE 98 and be "e-marked" to demonstrate this. That can only be done by the headlamp supplier - Hella, Valeo etc. who must test the headlamp in an independent laboratory.
2. Once fitted to the vehicle it must have headlamp cleaning and self-levelling (which can be for the headlamp or can be in the vehicle suspension - some expensive estate cars have "self-levelling suspension" and that is adequate). Also the dipped beam must stay on with the main beam.
3. The headlamp must be maintained in good working order, kept clean, and aligned/adjusted correctly like any other headlamp.
Under the Road Traffic Act 1988 it is an offence to supply, fit or use vehicle parts which are not legal.
In summary it is not permitted to convert an existing halogen headlamp unit for use with HID bulbs. The entire headlamp unit must be replaced with one designed and approved for use with HID bulbs and it must be installed in accordance with the rules stated above."

If you are found to be using lights which don't comply, in all likelihood, you may be reported to the Procurator Fiscal and may end up with a fine.

discomania said:

You must have self leveling suspension and headlight washers, if not, no you can't.

Also, HID kits are now an MOT fail and quite rightly so because all these idiots go about blinding us now with kits fitted to vehicles that shouldn't have them.

Also, basically the only way to comply with the text below is to fit new headlights designed to work with a metal halide lamp, have SLS and washers.

Text from VOSA:

In the Department's view it is not legal to sell or use after market HID lighting kits, for converting conventional Halogen headlamps to HID Xenon. If a customer wants to convert his vehicle to Xenon HID he must purchase completely new Xenon HID headlamps. The reason for this is that the existing lens and reflector are designed around a Halogen filament bulb, working to very precise tolerances. If one places a HID "burner" (bulb) in the headlamp, the beam pattern will not be correct, there will be glare in some places and not enough light in other places within the beam pattern.
The following is the legal rationale:
The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 regulate the situation in the UK.
Under these Regulations, HID/Gas Discharge/Xenon headlamps are not mentioned and therefore they are not permitted according to the strict letter of the law.
However new vehicles have HID headlamps. This is because they comply to European type approval Regulations. The UK cannot refuse to register a vehicle with a European type approval. These are to ECE Regulation 98 (for the HID headlamps which are tested on a rig in a laboratory) and ECE Regulation 48 (Lighting Installation on the vehicle).
For the after market, a used vehicle cannot obtain type approval because it is only applicable for new vehicles. However we feel that saying "HID is banned in the after market" would not be reasonable. Instead we should make analogies with new vehicles. It would be reasonable to require HID in the after market to meet the same safety standards as on new vehicles. The same level of safety should apply.
Therefore a HID headlamp unit sold in the after market should:
1. be type approved to ECE Regulation 98 as a component.
2. when fitted to the vehicle should enable ECE Regulation 48 to be complied with (although no government inspection will take place).
3. Comply with RVLR as far as "use" is concerned.
In practice this means:
1. The headlamp unit (outer lens, reflector, bulb) shall be type approved to ECE 98 and be "e-marked" to demonstrate this. That can only be done by the headlamp supplier - Hella, Valeo etc. who must test the headlamp in an independent laboratory.
2. Once fitted to the vehicle it must have headlamp cleaning and self-levelling (which can be for the headlamp or can be in the vehicle suspension - some expensive estate cars have "self-levelling suspension" and that is adequate). Also the dipped beam must stay on with the main beam.
3. The headlamp must be maintained in good working order, kept clean, and aligned/adjusted correctly like any other headlamp.
Under the Road Traffic Act 1988 it is an offence to supply, fit or use vehicle parts which are not legal.
In summary it is not permitted to convert an existing halogen headlamp unit for use with HID bulbs. The entire headlamp unit must be replaced with one designed and approved for use with HID bulbs and it must be installed in accordance with the rules stated above."

If you are found to be using lights which don't comply, in all likelihood, you may be reported to the Procurator Fiscal and may end up with a fine.

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The sale and fitting of HID direct replacement bulbs is now illegal, that is correct, you will proberbly be able to get them still under the 'off road use' bull**** suppliers do.

If they are currently fitted they wont be an MOT failure, it will be a pass and advisory.

I have spoken to VOSA, checked the manuals and asked various VT's now about this and it is definitly a pass and advise on HID systems without levelers and washers, this is of course providing you get a beam pattern and the colour is correct.

So someone with a HID kit will get a constant advisory on every MOT now?

Surely if you don't have SLS or washers and a HID kit fitted it will be a fail? I could go and fit an HID kit to my 90 and when my MOT comes just say yes it's been there for years, then it's only an advisory?

If that's the case then they may as well not bother with this new EU ruling because it won't get all the dodgy HID kits off the road.

discomania said:

So someone with a HID kit will get a constant advisory on every MOT now?

Surely if you don't have SLS or washers and a HID kit fitted it will be a fail? I could go and fit an HID kit to my 90 and when my MOT comes just say yes it's been there for years, then it's only an advisory?

If that's the case then they may as well not bother with this new EU ruling because it won't get all the dodgy HID kits off the road.

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This new EU stuff isnt just for the lights, there are lots of changes, speedo illumination, SRS/TCS systems, Ball joint dust covers e.t.c.

VOSA was originally going to follow the EU suggested rules but it was decided as there are to many cars already fitted with HID bulbs that were sold legally then they cant just outlaw them. It is now law that they are not legal for sale as a replacement bulb but if already fitted then it is a pass and advice. It leaves the big loop hole of how do you tell if someone has only just fitted them but that is not the MOT testers job to decide this, they just do the test.

Jongould said:

This new EU stuff isnt just for the lights, there are lots of changes, speedo illumination, SRS/TCS systems, Ball joint dust covers e.t.c.

VOSA was originally going to follow the EU suggested rules but it was decided as there are to many cars already fitted with HID bulbs that were sold legally then they cant just outlaw them. It is now law that they are not legal for sale as a replacement bulb but if already fitted then it is a pass and advice. It leaves the big loop hole of how do you tell if someone has only just fitted them but that is not the MOT testers job to decide this, they just do the test.

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So given the title of this thread!! WHY have all your answers suugested that it was ok to fit HID's. But your now saying it's illegal???

redhand said:

So given the title of this thread!! WHY have all your answers suugested that it was ok to fit HID's. But your now saying it's illegal???

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He saying its illegal to now buy them, but if u already have them u won't fail an mot, the law is an ass with things like this, it was illegal to have led side lights ( still could be for all I know ) but now u can have loads if you call um day time running lights ,

redhand said:

So given the title of this thread!! WHY have all your answers suugested that it was ok to fit HID's. But your now saying it's illegal???

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It is 100% legal for the MOT, I have since found out that they wish to outlaw the sale of these kits although as there are so many kits already fitted its going to be very hard to police to tell which ones have been fitted before 2012 and which ones have flaunted this loophole and been fitted since. So as far as I have been led to belive it is illegal to fit them as of now however there is no way to check up on this that I currently know of.

Basically im suggesting that if you really want them then yes, fit them and there will be no sure fire way of anyone saying they are illegal as they can not tell if they were fitted previously or since the rules change. Its a legal hole that has been left by VOSA changing their minds on how to interpret the EU rulings.

Now I may be incorrect on the details of the sales of these kits, no one I spoke to could be 100% as there are so many grey areas surrounding this, for that I will happily concede I may not be correct, my comments are based on the information I have been told without confirmation. All I can say for definite is they WILL pass an MOT providing they meet pattern and colour requirements and that there is no recognised way of telling when a conversion had been done. I do know 100% that vehicles built from 2012 will have to have leveling and wash systems, this suggests that the sale and fitting of aftermarket kits is now illegal.