HID Kit on TD5 Facelift Legal?

That's old info we're on about the new changes coming in. As descroibed in the links and copied info posted earlier.

That info you posted can also be accessed by the public on the MOTUK website here MOT UK car and vehicle MOT information equipment car servicing parts and spares - hand brake control valves

I'll repost the new info issued by VOSA to clarify once again..

Dazzle can also be caused if the lamps are dirty or aimed too high due to, for example, carrying rear seat passengers and/or heavy items in the boot. Vehicles with HID headlamps are therefore required to have a headlamp washing system (a wiper is not required) and be self levelling, which may be achieved either by the use of either headlamp or suspension levelling systems.
The presence and operation of these headlamp cleaning and levelling devices has been added to the test. Therefore, if a mandatory headlamp levelling or cleaning device is missing, inoperative or otherwise obviously defective, the vehicle will fail.

and the Link..http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/technicalpenpicture3-lighting.pdf..

redhand said:

That's old info we're on about the new changes coming in. As descroibed in the links and copied info posted earlier.

That info you posted can also be accessed by the public on the MOTUK website here MOT UK car and vehicle MOT information equipment car servicing parts and spares - hand brake control valves

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What the ****, what is the problem here? that manual is the latest edition, everything with the black line next to it is the latest additions. I run an MOT center, I went to the seminars, I KNOW WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT!!

I would suggest that you yourself give VOSA a call about this and ask what they say, you could call your local MOT center, im sure they will help you out. Dont think im making this up, I have no reason to make this up, it is the law, it is how the MOT works, it is the exact wording as per the current edition of the MOT testers guide as taken from the MOT computer systems, not the web based info systems but the actual MOT computers, the ones used by every MOT center and the one whos wordings are taken as the current interpretation of the law. I dont see why your trying to find fault with what I am saying??

Jongould said:

What the ****, what is the problem here? that manual is the latest edition, everything with the black line next to it is the latest additions. I run an MOT center, I went to the seminars, I KNOW WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT!!

I would suggest that you yourself give VOSA a call about this and ask what they say, you could call your local MOT center, im sure they will help you out. Dont think im making this up, I have no reason to make this up, it is the law, it is how the MOT works, it is the exact wording as per the current edition of the MOT testers guide as taken from the MOT computer systems, not the web based info systems but the actual MOT computers, the ones used by every MOT center and the one whos wordings are taken as the current interpretation of the law. I dont see why your trying to find fault with what I am saying??

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Because your interpretation doesn't match what VOSA are actually saying See my previous post. I made it larger and bright red so you can see it for youself.. .

a few points, the DfT link isn't legally binding, the MOT tester's handbook is.
The words printed in the manual aren't an interpretation.
It is far from unknown for government bodies to contradict themselves.
An MOT tester MUST go by the manual or he risks being fined and or losing his job.
I would suggest that what has been outlined in red is intended to be applied to a vehicle fitted with HID from the factory, not aftermarket systems.

redhand said:

Because your interpretation doesn't match what VOSA are actually saying See my previous post. I made it larger and bright red so you can see it for youself.. .

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Right, lets get this straight, this isnt my interpretation, this is the rules as per the MOT system. You can already see that the weblink you have posted doesnt match the MOT manual so one of the two must be wrong, now as MOT testers use the manual as presented on the MOT computer and not the website you have shown I would possibly sugest the idea that the weblink is wrong, I know its a DFT site but it can still be wrong. All the testers test to what is said in the manual, word for word. The inclusion of the words 'may be fitted' and 'where such systems are fitted' is to allow for converted vehicles.

Now I know the DFT site says otherwise but if you wont belive me I would strongly suggest you contact VOSA regarding this issue, im sure they will give confrimation on what is expected come MOT time.

Jongould said:

Right, lets get this straight, this isnt my interpretation, this is the rules as per the MOT system. You can already see that the weblink you have posted doesnt match the MOT manual so one of the two must be wrong, now as MOT testers use the manual as presented on the MOT computer and not the website you have shown I would possibly sugest the idea that the weblink is wrong, I know its a DFT site but it can still be wrong. All the testers test to what is said in the manual, word for word. The inclusion of the words 'may be fitted' and 'where such systems are fitted' is to allow for converted vehicles.

Now I know the DFT site says otherwise but if you wont belive me I would strongly suggest you contact VOSA regarding this issue, im sure they will give confrimation on what is expected come MOT time.

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Nope thew link I posted is an update to the MOT with the new requirements. As a tester you must be aware of these updates surely?? The mot manual is a static document and any changes to the law or to mot rules are issued by VOSA as they come up.

sidewaysste said:

a few points, the DfT link isn't legally binding, the MOT tester's handbook is.
The words printed in the manual aren't an interpretation.
It is far from unknown for government bodies to contradict themselves.
An MOT tester MUST go by the manual or he risks being fined and or losing his job.
I would suggest that what has been outlined in red is intended to be applied to a vehicle fitted with HID from the factory, not aftermarket systems.

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You obviously didn't click on the link then. If you had you would have seen this.

redhand said:

Nope thew link I posted is an update to the MOT with the new requirements. As a tester you must be aware of these updates surely?? The mot manual is a static document and any changes to the law or to mot rules are issued by VOSA as they come up.

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Nope, the link you posted is a webpage hosted on a goverment website. It wouldnt be the first mistake and I doubt it would be the last. I can only guess that the page you belive so intently to be law was made before the question of converted lights came up, after that question was raised VOSA then changed the wording to allow for HID conversions. Have you thought of the possibility that the web page is out of date? Even if only by a month or so? Or maybe that the website was created before VOSA had introduced the changes and was basically copied from what the EU wanted us to do?

Heres a link from the MOT testers forum, this also confirms what I have been saying.

The MOT Forum - HID headlights

Im not going to argue any more, I will leave it up to others to decide what they think, I know what the law regarding the MOT is so thats enough for me.

Jongould said:

Heres a link from the MOT testers forum, this also confirms what I have been saying.

The MOT Forum - HID headlights

.

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And yet again you prove I'm right The last post on that page refers you to the document I quoted. I suggest you try reading it..

"which because I'm quite thick, I like." Is that what MOT bloke should admit to openly?

I would suggest the the MOT manual 1.7.2 "A headlamp levelling or cleaning device inoperative or otherwise obviously defective" the word missing is... missing.

I don't think for a minute that the word missing was added to the Vosa document in error.

Really??

'Carefull........... have a look at the 'Lighting' Technical Pen Picture recently published for clarification.
Actually the whole set are quite good as they go that bit further in explaining stuff in the most simple and basic way, which because I'm quite thick, I like. '

but what about this bit?

'you only test if fitted so if no washers or self leveling device fitted its ok pass and advise '

Honestly, please believe me or please confirm it with your local MOT center, go sit with them and watch as they bring up the manual. This has been a massive grey area and there is info all over the internet saying one thing or another, however the fact remains that the MOT testers all follow the MOT manual, a copy of which I have already shown you. This is how cars are tested and it says it clear and simple, vehicles MAY have systems fitted and they are only tested where fitted! I can go google loads of website aggreeing and disagreeing with this but it doesnt change the matter, its down to what is written in the MOT manual

ok, so quick question to really open up this debate.

I have converted my facelift headlights to have projector lenses in them, so I can run HID's with the right cut off pattern and not dazzle oncomers.

I have headlight washers (that I think work) but no self levelling suspension, nor do the manual motor adjusters on the headlights work since I changed over the lights from the 300 versions.

These have been fitted for quite some time, and never bothered the MOT last year.

So my question is, because my manual headlight adjusters no longer work, will this fail?

Yes and no

StuRox said:

ok, so quick question to really open up this debate.

I have converted my facelift headlights to have projector lenses in them, so I can run HID's with the right cut off pattern and not dazzle oncomers.

I have headlight washers (that I think work) but no self levelling suspension, nor do the manual motor adjusters on the headlights work since I changed over the lights from the 300 versions.

These have been fitted for quite some time, and never bothered the MOT last year.

So my question is, because my manual headlight adjusters no longer work, will this fail?

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If the beam pattern is correct then its a pass, only if auto adjusters are fitted must they work, where they are not fitted its a pass and advise. If your allignment is out it will fail and then the adjusters being broken will kick you in the arse....

EDIT - by auto adjusters I mean self leveling system, not electronic headlight adjusters as in the little switch you control inside.

Jongould said:

If your allignment is out it will fail and then the adjusters being broken will kick you in the arse....

EDIT - by auto adjusters I mean self leveling system, not electronic headlight adjusters as in the little switch you control inside.

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The adjusters on the actual headlights work fine to move the beam around, hence how I got them aligned properly.

Its the manual switch with 3 settings inside next to the wing mirror adjusters that no longer works the lights, as I could not work out the wiring to work the new light motors.

So in theory I should pass with an advisory?

Jongould said:

Really??


but what about this bit?

'you only test if fitted so if no washers or self leveling device fitted its ok pass and advise '

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But that is just one persons unsubstantiated opinion not a legally binding statement.

I had a look on Piston heads. and bear in mind this thread is about wether an Aftermarket HID kit is legal on a vehicle to which they weren't offered as a "from new Fitment"

The following is the legal rationale:

The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 regulate the situation in the UK.
Under these Regulations, HID/Gas Discharge/Xenon headlamps are not mentioned and therefore they are not permitted according to the strict letter of the law.

However new vehicles have HID headlamps. This is because they comply to European type approval Regulations. The UK cannot refuse to register a vehicle with a European type approval. These are to ECE Regulation 98 (for the HID headlamps which are tested on a rig in a laboratory) and ECE Regulation 48 (Lighting Installation on the vehicle).

For the after market, a used vehicle cannot obtain type approval because it is only applicable for new vehicles. However we feel that saying "HID is banned in the after market" would not be reasonable. Instead we should make analogies with new vehicles. It would be reasonable to require HID in the after market to meet the same safety standards as on new vehicles. The same level of safety should.

So it would seem that the legal soitution is pretty clear. Everything I'm reading says no washers and self levelling = MOT Fail + Illegally fitted.


Can you actually find a document that says HIDs DO NOT require these 2 items?? any thing will do Vosa document Court ruling even an item in a news paper.?? If you can't then all we have is your opinion that

"any car can have HIDs fitted and be legal and pass an MOT"

redhand said:

But that is just one persons unsubstantiated opinion not a legally binding statement.

I had a look on Piston heads. and bear in mind this thread is about wether an Aftermarket HID kit is legal on a vehicle to which they weren't offered as a "from new Fitment"

The following is the legal rationale:

The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 regulate the situation in the UK.
Under these Regulations, HID/Gas Discharge/Xenon headlamps are not mentioned and therefore they are not permitted according to the strict letter of the law.

However new vehicles have HID headlamps. This is because they comply to European type approval Regulations. The UK cannot refuse to register a vehicle with a European type approval. These are to ECE Regulation 98 (for the HID headlamps which are tested on a rig in a laboratory) and ECE Regulation 48 (Lighting Installation on the vehicle).

For the after market, a used vehicle cannot obtain type approval because it is only applicable for new vehicles. However we feel that saying "HID is banned in the after market" would not be reasonable. Instead we should make analogies with new vehicles. It would be reasonable to require HID in the after market to meet the same safety standards as on new vehicles. The same level of safety should.

So it would seem that the legal soitution is pretty clear. Everything I'm reading says no washers and self levelling = MOT Fail + Illegally fitted.


Can you actually find a document that says HIDs DO NOT require these 2 items?? any thing will do Vosa document Court ruling even an item in a news paper.?? If you can't then all we have is your opinion that

"any car can have HIDs fitted and be legal and pass an MOT"

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Did you miss this one then?


That is the actual MOT testers manual, a VOSA produced document for testers, it has the date issued on the bottom right corner. It clearly states on there what I have been trying to get through to you. I would suggest that you stop looking on forums and actually give VOSA a call. We all know the internet is full of rubbish and that its very hard to filter the bull****. Have you thought that you may be wrong? Has it occoured to you that as an MOT VT and someone who has been told by the regional trainer, VTS council members and the MOT seminar council I could be right?

I dont know why you are so intent to try and make this difficult. That picture above is the MOT manual, it is the rules, the one and only set of rules which apply to MOT testing. There are no other documents that have more relevance than this document, this is the holy grail of MOT guidelines, it is the bible of vehicle testers, it is the be all and end all, there is no questioning it, it is the manual. What other people say on forums or what other websites have on their pages is all irrelevant, it comes down to what is in the manual, the picture above is what is in the manual.