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Help! Slow TD5 Camshaft Issues ?

Discussion in 'General Land Rover Forum' started by Carrington, Feb 10, 2017.

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  1. Carrington

    Carrington New Member

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    Hi All,

    Please forgive me, Im new to this forum, and to the world of Land Rover!

    Im also a mechanic numpty - and the only tools I've ever owned are a screw driver and a hammer!!!

    Great Forum, with lots of help from some very kind people:)

    Was looking for some advice if i may...?

    I recently moved to Ankara, Turkey from the UK. Its fairly hilly out here with lots of steep climbs and snow.

    Last month i got myself a 2004 TD5 Discovery 2.5TD. The car has spent its life in Istanbul and was driven to Ankara (about 4 hr drive) by its last owner. It has lots of service paperwork with it - but to be honest i don't know what it relates to as its all in Turkish!

    Having had a Shogun and later an Amazon Landcruiser in the UK, i was somewhat disappointed with the performance of the TD5 especially up hill. Just seemed to lack power - very slow etc etc.

    Anyhow, searched this forum for ideas, disconnect the MAF, no difference, cleaned the MAF and MAP sensor - slightly better, and eventually identified a stuck Turbo waste gate actuator. Lots of WD40 and the driver is much much better (took it to a local garage who plugged it into a diagnostics tool - which identified a 'Turbo overboost fault logged) - hence the WD40 on the actuator.

    Today i took the TD5 to another garage along with the helpful guide (that i found on here) on how to change the Injector Harness (noticed oil near the ECU). Having had the mechanic replace the injector harness went back to the garage to collect the car. The mechanic speaks no english, and i can speak very little Turkish...

    He gave me photo's of what looks like a pitted camshaft ? I haven't a clue what his recommendation is, or what the cause maybe. Just wanted some advice on what i should be doing with the car in this state...Repair, replace or scrap..

    Could this be the reason for such a slow car, that struggles to go up hill moore than 25 MPH ?

    Appreciate any advice - PS Im told there is a land rover dealership in Ankara - but they charge a fortune, and from reviews, do seem to know what they are doing...


    TD5.jpg TD5 - 2.jpg TD5.jpg TD5 - 2.jpg TD5.jpg TD5 - 2.jpg

    Again, Thank you for any advice !

    Carrington
     
  2. Carrington

    Carrington New Member

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    Sorry, meant to say local LR dealers DONOT seem to know what they're doing - apparently change everything until problem solved....or you run out of money!
     
  3. SpringDon

    SpringDon Well-Known Member

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    That looks awful like it's been run on door hinge grade oil. Don't know the td5 innards but if the cam looks like that, I'd expect the big ends and bores to look awful as well.
    Does it smoke or rattle?
    There's that much wear, I wouldn't be surprised the valve lift/timing affected the running.

    I'd say head and cams at minimum, entire engine at worst. It's worth going to the or dealer for an opinion.


    Edit: or send those pictures to turner engineering, they'd be able to tell if it's scrap or not.
     
  4. Carrington

    Carrington New Member

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    Oh dear...thanks for the quick response.
     
  5. Carrington

    Carrington New Member

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    No smoke at all, what id class as usual rattles from interior fittings but not engine...
     
  6. SpringDon

    SpringDon Well-Known Member

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    I have found references to variable case hardening in early td5 engines. So if there's no smoke or noises possibly you could replace cam, followers etc. But I'd still worry where all those picked up bits of metal went.

    You really, really need to get an opinion from someone who knows td5s. There is a td5 sub forum and the engine section where the experts hang out (probably)
     
  7. Brown

    Brown Well-Known Member

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    There's certainly a lot of fretting on the cam followers for the injectors. You see a little of this sometimes but you've got loads. Interestingly, from what I can see, the followers that work the valves don't seem to be as bad. I seem to remember someone on here (possibly Bennehboy) suggested that this happens because contemporary oils don't have the additives in that were commonplace when the TD5 engine was developed. To get a sense of the overall state of the engine I'd be tempted to pop the sump and oil pump tray off and have a look at one or two of the main bearings and big ends just to see if a lot of metal has picked up there as well. The rollers look nasty but wouldn't slow you down all by themselves, so maybe there's more wear and tear elsewhere. Looks like someone has run it for a while with no oil or very low oil.
     
  8. jamesmartin

    jamesmartin Well-Known Member

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    true the the injector followers are under a lot more pressure than the valves lobes
     
  9. brian47

    brian47 Well-Known Member

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    Even if the "commonplace additives" are no longer in modern oils, regular oil and filter changes, LR recommend every 6000 miles will go a long way towards mitigating such damage in the future.
    @Brown 's advice might sound a bit OTT, but in reality it's the only sure way of finding out exactly how much damage has or has not been done to the engine. If the rest of the engine is OK then maybe you could consider a replacement injector cam follower assembly.
    Low oil level could well be the cause, but likewise it could also be a faulty pump or even a blocked oilway.
     
  10. Brown

    Brown Well-Known Member

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    Well, I don't think they're commonplace any longer, that's the problem! Anyway, that's just someone's theory, I don't know how true it is. My followers have got a little bit of fretting on them after nearly 100,000 miles, but the illustrations here look like the case hardening's peeling off, as per SpringDon's comments. Having a look at the bottom end will tell you something about whether all the bearings have fretted or whether it's just localised oil starvation.

    Whilst you can replace things on a TD5 engine like bearing shells, cam followers, piston rings and the like, as I recall machining is not recommended. So no rebores, crank regrinds, head or block skimming and so on. You can do a lot to give the engine a new lease of life by replacing worn components and there are some detailed rebuilds on here by Bennehboy and Markomate, so as to show what's involved.

    One fault that people often mention with TD5s is that the sprocket on the oil pump comes off (it's chain driven from the crankshaft and the retaining bolt slowly unscrews itself) leaving you without any oil pressure. Maybe that's another possibility. Somebody might have run it for a bit without the oil pump connected.
     
  11. MJI

    MJI Well-Known Member

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    The performance of a TD5 should be the last concern, they are a very strong and good performing lump.

    Should be much better than an agricultural lump like a Shogun.
     
  12. raywin

    raywin Well-Known Member

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    This seems to be a problem with the TD5 I have it with mine, I bought a set of second hand rockers and fitted a new one as a stop gap until I can replace the cam shaft and rockers, (also manged to get a set of second hand ones)
    Take care the cam shaft and rockers are different on the earlier 10p engine and the later 15 p engine.
    Look at the links I put in this post.
    https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-ro...is-this-a-common-problem.266528/#post-3221694
     
  13. norseman

    norseman Well-Known Member

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    Welcome to the forum. It's not a disgrace to be a numpty as long as you are open about it - most of what I know about LR products has been gained by picking up the tab after someone knowledgeable has carried out the work, you'd be surprised how your knowledge grows as your bank balance diminishes :(
    Hope you can resolve your problem as painlessly as possible, I'm sure you will receive plenty of advice on here.
    nb: Hammers are very useful, just don't hit your screwdriver with one - use a chisel :rolleyes:
     
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  14. Carrington

    Carrington New Member

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    Thank you all for your helpful replies. Im looking to book it in with the LR Dealers here - my problem is communicating all the recommendations here to the dealership. Im reluctant to shell out lots of money trying to fix this issue if there is little or no impact on the cars performance - it might just be a case of a tired engine - the car has 197,000KM on it -
     
  15. Brown

    Brown Well-Known Member

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    Quite right. Always use the correct tool for the job. I always use a pair of pliers to hit the end of the screwdriver with.
     
  16. Carrington

    Carrington New Member

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    Evening all,

    Just an update about my TD5 - 2 days after a service at a local Land Rover Specialist - I noticed a significant drop in fuel, and a huge increase in the amount of smoke coming out of the exhaust when the car warmed up... I spent a day or two trying to figure out if it was white or blue smoke, couldn't decide. Anyhow, checked the oil level and it looked like it was twice the level it should have been. I didn't think there was a drop in coolant.

    Called the mechanic out - and asked for a diagnosis - silly really as he only speaks Turkish, and i only speak English. After a lot of pointless nodding, i allowed him to take the car away. He has now fixed the problem, but I'm still unsure as to what he's actually done. He has sent me some photo's in an attempt to explain his work. I have to collect the car tomorrow, and i'm told its fixed. From what i can make out, i just need a MAF for it to run smoothly (it was sluggish before the service and struggled to change gear above 3000 revs, and when it did, it kangarooed). Which i will get when i'm back in London next week. The MAF's here cost £300.

    So the questions i have are:

    1. Is a VDO Siemans MAF as good as LR MAF s ? I'm told not to bother with aftermarket ones - true or false ?
    2. Can anyone have a guess at what work has been completed ?

    3. The total cost of all this is £1200...what would i expect to pay in the UK for this kind of open heart surgery ?
     

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  17. Carrington

    Carrington New Member

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    Forgot to add, the £1200 includes the cost of a reconditioned turbo, as apparently my turbo was history. Recon turbo has a two year warranty with it.
     
  18. v8landyman

    v8landyman Active Member

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    1. New injector washers and O rings
    2. Camshaft and injector cam followers
    3. Cylinder head and associated gaskets
    4. Rotor oil filter
    5. New, cleaned or repaired cylinder head?

    Sounds like a good deal for £1200 with the turbo, depending on the identity of the cylinder head
     
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  19. Ratae

    Ratae Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
  20. Brown

    Brown Well-Known Member

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    The head in the pictures looks nice and clean. Has he fitted a reconditioned one? Or is it just cleaned up? Anyway, I'd guess at more than £1200 in this country. It looks like you might have had a new cam and new rockers as well as a jolly good clean up, and new seals and injector washers and new gaskets. May even have lapped the valves in too. If that's your original head in those pictures, he's certainly cleaned it up well. Looks like a man who takes his time and takes pride in his work.
     
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