FL2 will not start

2007 Freelander 2 td4 cut out and will not start.
I was told by the RAC it is likely to be the fuel pump. Checked the codes and the fuel level censor code faults showed up. Ripped out the tank and replaced the lift pump along with the fuel level censor on the drivers side. Checked the ohm reading from the level censors and they seemed to be within the readings of 1020 and 40 ohms. The pump works when I connect to a battery. Bleed the system up to the filter but still no joy. I have stipped out the filter and the high pressure pump which are now on the bench. What tests can I carry out on the high pressure pump to check if it is working. Also how do i test the fuel pressure censor and fuel regulator.

There's no lift pump in the tank, just a transfer pump to pass fuel from left to right side of the tank. It it goes wrong, all that happens is the engine behaves like its run out of fuel, when the gauge shows ¼ tank.
The fuel system on these engines seldom gives trouble, and the injectors are much more likely to give issues than the HP pump. Fuel issues normally cause misfiring, not complete shutdown.
All the stuff you've pulled out is generally reliable, although the pump drive has been known to fail occasionally, and so has the exhaust cam where it drives the pump.

If the engine cut out suddenly, did the MIL come on?
Has the crank sensor been replaced?
Has the throttle body been checked to make sure the throttle plate hasn't got stuck closed?
Have any proper codes been read? Ignore breakdown service codes and advice, as those guys are generally useless.

Thanks Nodege68. When you say the engine behaves like it has run out of fuel. I presume a sensor somehow stops it from starting up. If so do you have to reset it when it has been fixed.
I presume the pump in the tank pumps from the live side ( side with the pump in) over to the dead side (side without the pump in). Again what controls the amount it pumps over and to what level.
Sorry for the all the questions but i like to try and work out how thinks work.

The crank sensor has not been replaced ( how do i check that).

Throttle body plate has not been checked. Did not realise it had one.. again how is that checked.

The only code i got where fuel level sensors and a 1/4 reading on the fuel gauge.

Thsnks again for your help. It is appreciated.

Tony

These have the BMW engine, right?

Does it sound normal when cranking? The timing chains can fail/skip, but they usually sound odd when they've done that. Do you have a video of it cranking?

Hi Allanworm
It cranks normal with no unusual sounds.

Tony

Tony O’Brien said:

Thanks Nodege68. When you say the engine behaves like it has run out of fuel. I presume a sensor somehow stops it from starting up. If so do you have to reset it when it has been fixed.
I presume the pump in the tank pumps from the live side ( side with the pump in) over to the dead side (side without the pump in). Again what controls the amount it pumps over and to what level.
Sorry for the all the questions but i like to try and work out how thinks work.

The crank sensor has not been replaced ( how do i check that).

Throttle body plate has not been checked. Did not realise it had one.. again how is that checked.

The only code i got where fuel level sensors and a 1/4 reading on the fuel gauge.

Thsnks again for your help. It is appreciated.

Tony

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When a diesel runs out of fuel, they initially just seem to loose power, as air is drawn in, reducing the fuel throughput and hence the power just drops away. This is a classic symptom of a transfer pump issue, where the fuel pump isn't pumping fuel over the hump in the tank. The fuel level sensor for the gauge is on the opposite side to the engine takeoff, so if the pump doesn't transfer fuel over the hump, the engine feed side runs out of fuel, but the gauge still hows about ¼ full.

If a diesel just stops running, like turning off the ignition, it's more likely to an engine control item, like the crank sensor. My own has cut out 3 times, and each time it was related to the crank sensor or its plug. I've since fitted new plug to the harness, and fitted a genuine sensor and it's been fine since. The crank sensor is an easy 10 minute job, which I've done at the side of the road twice, only a 10mm spanner is needed.

There are other causes for sudden shutdown, but hopefully it's not those as it's likely to be related to timing belt failure, which isn't good.

It's best to look at all live data with a suitable diagnostic device, before pulling parts of the engine, especially the fuel system, as the pipes need replacing, and the tiniest speck of dirt entering the fuel system will damage the pump or injectors, which then need replacing and coding.

AllanWorms said:

These have the BMW engine, right?

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The Freelander 2 uses a PSA DW12 engine, which has a normal timing belt, although that doesn't mean failures don't happen, because they do occasionally.

Nodge68 said:

The Freelander 2 uses a PSA DW12 engine, which has a normal timing belt, although that doesn't mean failures don't happen, because they do occasionally.

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Righto... Ignore me then Carry on!

AllanWorms said:

Righto... Ignore me then Carry on!

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BMW, Ford/Pug/PSA... it all went down hill after 1999

GrumpyGel said:

BMW, Ford/Pug/PSA... it all went down hill after 1999

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The BMW part was probably the best... the rest, I'm not convinced

My best mate is trying to give me his BMW E39 530d wagon, so I can repower the Disco... but the 3.0 diesel is the same power as the 3.9 V8, but about 1/3 more torque... at half the RPM.

While waiting for parts i did a little experiment to see how the pump set up in the tank works. So i had an old spare set up.
I place the pump side in a plastic container and next to it another container with the remote fuel level sensor in it.

I wanted to know how the remote side of the tank feeds fuel to the motor side.

First i filled up the the motor side with water ti see if it pumps fuel to the remote side of the tank. I does not, it just pump the fuel from the motor side into the small container the actual motor is housed in and then overflows back into motor side of the tank. At this stage it does not take any fuel from the remote side of the tank.
When the engine is running it take all it fuel from the the small cylinder that the motor sits in and the return fuel pipe sends it back to the small cylinder. basically the small cylinder keeps filling and overflowing back into the motor side of the tank. When there is no fuel left in the motor side of the tank then the pump start sucking fuel from the remote side of the tank until it fills up the cylinder and then stops when the cylinder is full. Any overflow fuel or return fuel in dumped into the motor side of the tank or back into the cylinder. I am presuming the flow level censors send a signal to the fuel gauge which iakes an average of both readings to give an overall fuel level.

Not sure you can understand any of this and I maybe totally wrong as it was all by observation with no actual technical data to back it up. But interesting all the same

Tony

AllanWorms said:

The BMW part was probably the best... the rest, I'm not convinced

My best mate is trying to give me his BMW E39 530d wagon, so I can repower the Disco... but the 3.0 diesel is the same power as the 3.9 V8, but about 1/3 more torque... at half the RPM.

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It was a Rover diesel up to '99.

Dunno why I think its the best. But its what's in mine

Talking of 90's diesels, this super looking 300tdi D1 has just been listed. Shame Just as well I ain't got the cash or else the drive would be getting clogged up. I recon this County model with the LR logo seating will be the most 'collectable' in future...

https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/motors/cars/land-rover/discovery/listing/4219975641

Presumably that E39 motor is the bigger brother to the one installed in the RR P38? Presumably bits are therefore available to mate it up to LR transmission.

The operation of the pump is described in the manual, which is available free on this forum.

Thanks for that, i shall now go and find it to see if i was talking rubbish

AllanWorms said:

The BMW part was probably the best... the rest, I'm not convinced

My best mate is trying to give me his BMW E39 530d wagon, so I can repower the Disco... but the 3.0 diesel is the same power as the 3.9 V8, but about 1/3 more torque... at half the RPM.

Click to expand...

I wouldn't agree with that. The Freelander BMW engine isn't that great. It suffers from HP pump failures, injector failures, turbo failure, plastic cooling system parts breaking, glow plug failure, thermostat failure, and a whole pile of other issues with varying degrees of severity. If something on the Freelander 1 is going to go wrong, it's most likely to TD4 engine which does.
The old Rover L series is by far the most reliable engine that the FL1 got.

Tony O’Brien said:

Thanks for that, i shall now go and find it to see if i was talking rubbish

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I'll have a read too, as I've never studied the operation in detail.

Tony O’Brien said:

Thanks for that, i shall now go and find it to see if i was talking rubbish

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One thing to check with the HP pump off. Make sure the exhaust cam isn't broken, either the whole cam snapped off, or the drive dog slots aren't broken. Both of those can happen, but nobody knows quite why a cam would break.

Nodge68 said:

When a diesel runs out of fuel, they initially just seem to loose power, as air is drawn in, reducing the fuel throughput and hence the power just drops away. This is a classic symptom of a transfer pump issue, where the fuel pump isn't pumping fuel over the hump in the tank. The fuel level sensor for the gauge is on the opposite side to the engine takeoff, so if the pump doesn't transfer fuel over the hump, the engine feed side runs out of fuel, but the gauge still hows about ¼ full.

If a diesel just stops running, like turning off the ignition, it's more likely to an engine control item, like the crank sensor. My own has cut out 3 times, and each time it was related to the crank sensor or its plug. I've since fitted new plug to the harness, and fitted a genuine sensor and it's been fine since. The crank sensor is an easy 10 minute job, which I've done at the side of the road twice, only a 10mm spanner is needed.

There are other causes for sudden shutdown, but hopefully it's not those as it's likely to be related to timing belt failure, which isn't good.

It's best to look at all live data with a suitable diagnostic device, before pulling parts of the engine, especially the fuel system, as the pipes need replacing, and the tiniest speck of dirt entering the fuel system will damage the pump or injectors, which then need replacing and coding.

Click to expand...

Nodge would the crank sensor test be to crank the car and see if the Rev counter needle moves or is there a more involved test for that issue on the TD4?

Yes, cranking over will normally show cranking speed. My TD4 does.

Not having any look so far. Replaced the crank censor and fuel filter but still having no luck. Bleed the fuel system up to the filter. How do i test if fuel is reaching the fuel rail and if it is at the right pressure.