Drone at 60mph...any ideas please?

Hi all...

Need a bit of advice on the other half's Freelander please. It's a 2003 TD4 HSE 5 door auto, 117k on the clock and generally in pretty good order. It gets used mainly for very short trips at low speeds, but she's noticed something on a long run at the weekend.

At 60mph a low droning noise starts. It's more of a noise than an actual vibration, and it sounds a bit like when two engines (aircraft/boat) aren't properly sync'd on their throttles. Seems to be speed related rather than power related. Doesn't seem to to noticeably worse if one side is loaded up, which makes me think it might not be a wheel bearing, although as it's not that bad, it might be a bit hard to tell at the moment until the wear gets worse if it was a wheel bearing. I think it's also coming from the back of the car, not the front. And at lower speeds it's fine, no noise at all.

Just wanted to ask the forum in case these were well recognised early signs of trouble. VCU? Diff? Propshaft bearings?

In terms of diagnosis, I've not been under it at all yet on done a "OWUT" on the VCU. It seems ok on normal driving, the steering self centres fine, and although there's a bit of resistance and more throttle needed on full lock maneuvering, it doesn't seem too excessive, and my understanding is that if the VCU was shot (and straining diffs/IRD etc) we'd be ploughing big furrows in our gravel drive, which is not the case. Oh, she had two new front tyres a few hundred miles ago, however the tyre place is aware of Freelander tyre sizing issues and said it was fairly happy that changing the fronts only was OK in this case.

Any informed suggestions gratefully recieved! Thanks in advance.

Top candidates would be the VCU support bearings, especially the front one. You can sometimes detect this by thumping the prop near the bearing with the side of your fist - a bad one may clunk. You can also suspend all 4 wheels and listen to the bearings with a screwdriver stethoscope.

I would get under and check the whole prop for defects and bad UJs anyway. Wheel bearings can be checked for play, and by spinning the wheel and holding on to the spring - you’ll sometimes feel the roughness. Or hear it.

Swap the newer tyres to the back, assuming they’re the same make and type. It works better with the AWD setup. Also check pressures are all correct.

Do OWUT soon.

Go back and tell the tyre place they do not know what they are talking about New one and must be same make and size should always go on the back the droning noise could be the ird and the vcu. Both together do it ASAP.

I would also take the rear drums off and give them a good clean out, I had a bit of a drone when I first bought my FL1 I first replaced the VCU and it's support bearings, front and rear drive shaft and rear mounts, albeit not because of the drone noise, but because I was suspect of the VCU therefore change the whole drive shaft system, I am like that, anyways the drone was still there I removed the drums cleaned inside cleaned the brake shoes up etc and adjusted the handbrake, droning noise was gone but because the shoes did not look great and the expander etc I change the rear drums and it's brakes for new ones, so yes maybe take the drums off and check inside etc.

Hard-Drive said:

she had two new front tyres a few hundred miles ago, however the tyre place is aware of Freelander tyre sizing issues and said it was fairly happy that changing the fronts only was OK in this case.

Click to expand...

That's not good at all.

Hard-Drive said:

Hi all...

Need a bit of advice.

Oh, she had two new front tyres a few hundred miles ago, however the tyre place is aware of Freelander tyre sizing issues and said it was fairly happy that changing the fronts only was OK in this case.

Any informed suggestions gratefully recieved! Thanks in advance.

Click to expand...

The tyre place knows **** all about Freelander's if they said changing 2 fronts was OK. I expect they said you can mix different tyres on the Freelander too. Both is complete rubbish as it'll trash the 4X4 system in very little time. All 4 tyres MUST be the same make, type and size and the least worn MUST be on the back. The droning you can here is most likely the rear diff or IRD groaning under the strain.
Sort the tyre issue and see if the noise goes.

Hard-Drive said:

Hi all...

Need a bit of advice on the other half's Freelander please. It's a 2003 TD4 HSE 5 door auto, 117k on the clock and generally in pretty good order. It gets used mainly for very short trips at low speeds, but she's noticed something on a long run at the weekend.

At 60mph a low droning noise starts. It's more of a noise than an actual vibration, and it sounds a bit like when two engines (aircraft/boat) aren't properly sync'd on their throttles. Seems to be speed related rather than power related. Doesn't seem to to noticeably worse if one side is loaded up, which makes me think it might not be a wheel bearing, although as it's not that bad, it might be a bit hard to tell at the moment until the wear gets worse if it was a wheel bearing. I think it's also coming from the back of the car, not the front. And at lower speeds it's fine, no noise at all.

Just wanted to ask the forum in case these were well recognised early signs of trouble. VCU? Diff? Propshaft bearings?

In terms of diagnosis, I've not been under it at all yet on done a "OWUT" on the VCU. It seems ok on normal driving, the steering self centres fine, and although there's a bit of resistance and more throttle needed on full lock maneuvering, it doesn't seem too excessive, and my understanding is that if the VCU was shot (and straining diffs/IRD etc) we'd be ploughing big furrows in our gravel drive, which is not the case. Oh, she had two new front tyres a few hundred miles ago, however the tyre place is aware of Freelander tyre sizing issues and said it was fairly happy that changing the fronts only was OK in this case.

Any informed suggestions gratefully recieved! Thanks in advance.

Click to expand...

Sure it's not the wife ?

Hard-Drive said:

Hi all...

Need a bit of advice on the other half's Freelander please. It's a 2003 TD4 HSE 5 door auto, 117k on the clock and generally in pretty good order. It gets used mainly for very short trips at low speeds, but she's noticed something on a long run at the weekend.

At 60mph a low droning noise starts. It's more of a noise than an actual vibration, and it sounds a bit like when two engines (aircraft/boat) aren't properly sync'd on their throttles. Seems to be speed related rather than power related. Doesn't seem to to noticeably worse if one side is loaded up, which makes me think it might not be a wheel bearing, although as it's not that bad, it might be a bit hard to tell at the moment until the wear gets worse if it was a wheel bearing. I think it's also coming from the back of the car, not the front. And at lower speeds it's fine, no noise at all.

Just wanted to ask the forum in case these were well recognised early signs of trouble. VCU? Diff? Propshaft bearings?

In terms of diagnosis, I've not been under it at all yet on done a "OWUT" on the VCU. It seems ok on normal driving, the steering self centres fine, and although there's a bit of resistance and more throttle needed on full lock maneuvering, it doesn't seem too excessive, and my understanding is that if the VCU was shot (and straining diffs/IRD etc) we'd be ploughing big furrows in our gravel drive, which is not the case. Oh, she had two new front tyres a few hundred miles ago, however the tyre place is aware of Freelander tyre sizing issues and said it was fairly happy that changing the fronts only was OK in this case.

Any informed suggestions gratefully recieved! Thanks in advance.

Click to expand...

If you think these guys are scare mongering about the importance of tyres, have a read of this thread...

https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/feels-like-driving-with-brakes-on.260939/

The problems were caused by "All 4 tyres were fitted at the same time they are Goodyear Efficientgrip, looking at them 2 say SUV 4x4 but other 2 only say SUV but tread etc look the same.".

The Freelander owners handbook does recommend to change all 4 at the same time, however it goes on to say that if you only replace 2 make sure they are the same and "always fit the new tyres to the rear axle".

Freelander does not have a center diff, it has the VCU which only allows limited slip. Relatively small differences in tyres diameter from different manufacturers (and their pressures) can make a big problem. The reason the new ones need to go on the rear is that the back axle is slightly under geared anyway (supposedly to give a FWD driving feel) so if the smaller tyres are on that axle, it pushes that difference even further.

Thanks for the advice everyone. I had a poke around at the weekend but I'm still none the wiser.

So firstly I had a look at the propshaft support bearings. Obviously as a Defender man it was all a bit strange under there to me, however the propshaft seems to be held by rubber bearings, and when I apply a force laterally to the propshaft the whole thing moves sideways before bouncing back. I did not get the "clonk" referred to above though.

I swapped the new tyres so they are now on the rear, but it's not made any noticeable difference to the noise.

Now I'm a bit confused by this OWUT. What I think is the "instruction" thread, here, https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/the-definitive-freelander-vcu-testing-thread.99163/ is now missing half the photos unfortunately. Having a browse through other threads, there seems to be a huge amount of variances in weight and lever length, so are the results going to actually tell us anything anyway? Also, I assume there's going to be a big difference if I did a OWUT on a day like today where's there's ice on the windscreen, compared to the middle of June. What I do know is that with a short (2 foot) breaker bar on the hub, and me stood on the end, the wheel did slowly rotate so I'm guessing the VCU is not completely shot. Is that a fair assumption? I will say that yes, the car does need more power applied in full lock turns and does feel "tight" on full lock, however I read in one of the LR mags once that this is normal, and it's only when steering starts loosing it's self centering, and the car feels tight going round normal corners, not on full lock, that you have a problem. Is this correct?

I must admit at that point I ran out of enthusiasm as it was a horrible day. At the moment I still reckon it's going to be a wheel bearing or similar, simply because if we ignore the fact it's a Hippo for a second, the symptoms are consistent with the early signs of a wheel bearing going in a normal car. The symptoms don't appear until higher speed, clearly the VCU still moves, and I'm not getting any of this graunching/banging noise that apparently is the sign of an IRD on it's way out.

Could it be one of the prop UJs? I had a 2" lifted Disco 1 once that ate front props for breakfast, and again it's a similar drone. Is it worth removing the whole prop completely and if the noise disappears just replacing the whole thing?

Thanks

You can have a look at this thread for a bit of info on the 1WUT - using the 1.2m bar and 5kg of weight is what most tests are done with a timings to compare to.

https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/tests-new-freelander-owners-should-do-on-their-car.312863/
https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/tests-new-freelander-owners-should-do-on-their-car.312863/
You could remove the props and VCU - its just bolts to the IRD & rear diff pinions and the 4 holding up the VCU. It doesn't take long. The car will then be FWD. It will take away the possibility of the support bearings and joins on the props being the reason.

It doesn't definitively say its them if the noise stops as it could be the reduction in stresses causing other parts not to make the noise - but if the noise continues it definitely not them.

I'm not saying run permanently as 2WD, you can then put the props back on after you've checked for differences.

GrumpyGel that's hugely helpful, thanks. That thread really needs making a sticky and locking down!

I will OWUT it at the earliest opportunity, and before I start removing the prop...however I still reckon it's bearing related. Will report back! And thanks again, really useful post.

OK...did the OWUT...yikes, stopped timing at 2 minutes...

Obviously I went straight underneath it and came back out some time later minus some knuckes but clutching the propshaft. I ran it up the road and guess what...no more droning. So I've had a look at this very good thread...
https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/freelander-1-vcu-bearing-replacement-how-to-guide.156068/
...and clearly it's an easy DIY job to change the VCU. Cost will be:

Bell VCU £222
Bell Support bearings £48 (daft not to do them at the same time)
2 more tyres (the two recently replaced new ones probably have less than 1000 miles on) circa £150

Total: £420

Now, this is an 03 plate Freelander 1, and although it does get some off road use (farms/horsey stuff) I am wondering if really it's worth spending the money on an old depreciating vehicle, especially as 95% of the time it's the other half's family car/station hack. And it's not like we don't have a Defender too. If I'm feeling flush I might do, however I have a big question around the IRD.

The car seems to drive faultlessly now, there's no noise at all. And, before I removed the VCU, there was only noise at higher speeds (which the car rarely ever gets to because of it's use), and it was more of a low drone rather than anything that made me wince. But what I don't want to do, is spend all that money, and then find out the drone is back because the IRD has been damaged. So, once the IRD is loaded up again once the prop is reconnected, is it likely to be a case of damage already done and the noise is back, or as it runs quietly now, should I hopefully be OK with a new VCU working as intended?

Thanks again!

Hard-Drive said:

OK...did the OWUT...yikes, stopped timing at 2 minutes...

Obviously I went straight underneath it and came back out some time later minus some knuckes but clutching the propshaft. I ran it up the road and guess what...no more droning. So I've had a look at this very good thread...
https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/freelander-1-vcu-bearing-replacement-how-to-guide.156068/
...and clearly it's an easy DIY job to change the VCU. Cost will be:

Bell VCU £222
Bell Support bearings £48 (daft not to do them at the same time)
2 more tyres (the two recently replaced new ones probably have less than 1000 miles on) circa £150

Total: £420

Now, this is an 03 plate Freelander 1, and although it does get some off road use (farms/horsey stuff) I am wondering if really it's worth spending the money on an old depreciating vehicle, especially as 95% of the time it's the other half's family car/station hack. And it's not like we don't have a Defender too. If I'm feeling flush I might do, however I have a big question around the IRD.

The car seems to drive faultlessly now, there's no noise at all. And, before I removed the VCU, there was only noise at higher speeds (which the car rarely ever gets to because of it's use), and it was more of a low drone rather than anything that made me wince. But what I don't want to do, is spend all that money, and then find out the drone is back because the IRD has been damaged. So, once the IRD is loaded up again once the prop is reconnected, is it likely to be a case of damage already done and the noise is back, or as it runs quietly now, should I hopefully be OK with a new VCU working as intended?

Thanks again!

Click to expand...

You can check for play at the IRD-prop flange or drain out a bit of oil and check for metal fragments.

Check the VCU bearings on the removed prop for roughness and play - that’s probably where your drone was coming from.

Another option is to run the car in 2wd till next winter.

As above ^^^^
Change the IRD and diff oils and look to see what comes out. If it's dirty oil that's not grey in colour, then you'll likely be OK.

Yeh, I doubt you'll get metal fragments coming out because broken teeth would have made a much worse noise, but grey oil is the bearings ground to a pulp and suspended in the oil - a similarly bad sign.

There always appears to be some junk/filings on the end of the (magnetised) drain plug - that seems to be normal and not a worry.

Crack the fill plug loose before opening the drain - they are made of cheese and if you're wanting to do a quick oil change can leave the car imobilised. Use a good 6 sided socket on it.