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Dodgy series starter prob

Discussion in 'Series Land Rovers' started by steve2286w, Jun 2, 2019.

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  1. steve2286w

    steve2286w Well-Known Member

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    the starter on my diesel been getting worse over last few months it’s noisy and takes several attempts to turn it over , usually just getting the grinding noise as in video below
    Once it turns it normally starts but sometimes cranks a bit then grinds

    On one of the pics the pinion gear is up against the bush and according to manual there should be some clearance
    It’s a valeo make and does not seem to have the pinion adjustment that the Standard Lucas has.
    The ring gear is starting to wear with shiny burrs in the teeth but would not expect that wear to cause the issues
    The starter pinion teeth look ok
    Testing solenoid on bench it kicks out the pinion gear as it should


    Solenoid test


    The cables cleaned again and jumper lead from batt earth to bellhousing still not a clean start
    I have measured with calliper the distance from bellhousing to ring gear and compared with distance of pinion teeth to starter housing so has about 3mm clearance normally the throw out of the gears should also give full engagement

    Any ideas I’m getting lost what to look for next or what further testing to do

    I had removed previously and brushes and commutator looked clean and well
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Colthebrummie

    Colthebrummie Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like it's time for a new starter. I put a new one on mine last year but it already sounds like it is starting to struggle, I know the battery is good. I just think manufacturers don't make good starter motors any more.

    Col
     
  3. tottot

    tottot Well-Known Member

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    Is that a diesel engine ? Sounds like one. If so wrong type of starter.
     
  4. steve2286w

    steve2286w Well-Known Member

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    Yes it’s prob way to go, it’s supposed to be pre engaged type but if that was. Are shoulndt clatter, there is some end play on the shaft , I’ll try and shim it up and try again before forking out, surprisingly innards all look good, I have a 200tdi one I may try first
     
  5. steve2286w

    steve2286w Well-Known Member

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    I know , it should be the Lucas M45G according to manual but the Valeo make I guess is it’s equivalent pre engaged type
     
  6. Rodeo Joe

    Rodeo Joe Well-Known Member

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    Does it matter what type of starter it is? I thought that starters were pretty much interchangeable from series 3 to discovery or is that wrong?
     
  7. Colthebrummie

    Colthebrummie Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that is wrong.

    Col
     
  8. Rodeo Joe

    Rodeo Joe Well-Known Member

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    Can you expand on that , if it fits the hole then it'll work won't it? I only say that as my 2.5n/a diesel in my series 3 has a disco starter on it.
     
  9. tottot

    tottot Well-Known Member

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    A tdi starter should be fine.
     
  10. steve2286w

    steve2286w Well-Known Member

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    The 200 tdi starter on the right, fitted and starts first time no strange noises, I think the other just needs some adjustment but that’s for another day


    310845FE-979A-4FAB-B563-90C6489AEAFF.jpeg
     
  11. tottot

    tottot Well-Known Member

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    The one on the left is just not man enough for a Land Rover diesel engine.
     
  12. steve2286w

    steve2286w Well-Known Member

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    They’re similar size although pic looks odd. It’s been fine for the previous 14 years it’s been on,
     
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  13. tottot

    tottot Well-Known Member

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    The actual motor on the right hand one is bigger [ a lot more copper in there ] and your old one was likely past its best and continued use would result in damage to the ring gear.
     
  14. rob1miles

    rob1miles Well-Known Member

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    The LHS one looks to be a geared motor unit and the RHS one a direct drive. The geared units should draw a lower intial current and be a bit kinder on the wiring. Power "should" be the same as the geared unit motor gives less torque but spins faster. The geared units are a lot lighter. Have you stripped it?
     
  15. steve2286w

    steve2286w Well-Known Member

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    Yes it was a geared one, with a smaller cog turning an outer wheel I think both were plastic, all looked good with no wear however there seemed to be play on both the rotor and also the pinion shaft, I read a LUCAS technical service note on starters that the grinding could be caused by the pinion being too far from flywheel and so pinion velocity too high to engage properly with shimming recommended. On the plus side I can now swap out the starters in 10 mins
     
  16. rob1miles

    rob1miles Well-Known Member

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    Sad to say I got equally proficient at starter swaps after missing a key step on a starter rebuild. Its a skill I'd hoped not to maintain (along with how to strip wood chip wall paper), unfortunatley the solenoid is sticking...
     
  17. steve2286w

    steve2286w Well-Known Member

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    Intriguing , what was the key missed step, as they pivot is solenoid sticking the same as pinion sticking ?
    Another tip from the men in brown coats at Lucas was to lightly oil the pinion, where previous I thought they should be dry
     
  18. rob1miles

    rob1miles Well-Known Member

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    My starter had a high resistance somewhere so I stripped and cleaned everything but it still didn't improve. Then one cold morning I saw smoke come off the end plate and found it was too hot to touch. Stripped it again and there was corrosion under the earth brush holder. Drilled the rivets out, cleaned it and re-rivetted as a temp repair as it was partly melted!. Got a new end plate and found the design had changed to put the earth bolt through the brush holder and end plate so this must have been a known fault. Got a 2nd hand replacement and that's the one now giving trouble.. Its sticking on and the only way to stop it is pull the battery lead off, only does it once every few weeks but its a right pain. Not obvious what it is as:
    pulling ign lead off has no effect
    pulling main batt lead off stops it
    yet putting batt lead back its still stopped?
    whacking it has no effect
    So while I thiink its just sticking I'm also thinking there could be an internal short that's holding it in. The only way is to pull it off and strip it. Its on a Perkins 4203 so its reasonbly easy to reach but its heavy s*d. I think it is 3hp
     
  19. steve2286w

    steve2286w Well-Known Member

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  20. thspeller

    thspeller Member

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    Did you get to the bottom of this? I have EXACT same and it’s driving me insane. Tom
     
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