Difference between 3 or 2 Amigos?

Hiya.

I'm new to the LandyZone. Have got myself a second hand Freelander TD4.

Saw the TC and HDC! lights come on, stopped, brake hard, they goes off. Happens few times, took to garage, they tried their best but could not find out what is wrong.

I decided to look up on the Internet about this, and still doing so, in order to get to the bottom of this matter. For the future, ie: in case it gets worst, or in case there is a better different garage, etc.

Reading various webpages, I noticed that if it is a Discovery, it would have three lights coming on, and they call it "The Three Amigos" (which I would assume is based on the comedy movie).

At first I thought my Freelander showing only two lights would imply similar problem, just that it's 3 lights on Discovery but 2 lights on Freelander.

Yet: I have noticed some forums (even including in LandyZone) would sometimes have a posting where it would mention THREE lights on FREELANDER.

I'm confused! Am I missing something?

Do the Discovery normally usually have three lights while Freelander normally usually have two lights?

Or can a Freelander have either two lights or even the whole Three Amigos?

On a Freelander, is the two lights being TC and HDC! lights same/similar problem as Discovery's Three Amigos, or is the Freelander's two lights a different matter unless it could show the Three Amigos? (This is important to me to know, otherwise if there is a difference between those, I could have ended up finding out about a problem related to 3 Amigos instead of a problem related to 2 Amigos.)

The Freelander & Discovery systems are, depending on model year, the same.

To determine what is wrong, you simply plug in a diagnostic code reader and it will tell you why the lights are lit - there's various of possible reasons.

Not sure is late TD4s are fully ODB2 compatible (so you can use a cheap generic code reader) - but more likely you'll need a Freelander specific reader. Or take it to a garage who will plug their reader in and, for a few gold nuggets, tell you the codes.

The 3 Amigos are much more common than just 2 Amigos - although I have seen 2 Amigos on my car briefly after I got stuck on a gravel bank. When you turn the ignition on, does the ABS warning light illuminate for a period (or until you drive off)? If not, someone has removed its bulb to get the car through a MOT and in actual fact you do have the 3 Amigos - just 1 bulb is missing.

You can have 1, 2, 3 or 4 Amigos, depending on the fault at the time.
There's a list somewhere on my database. I'll look it out later.

I need to know the year, model, transmission type to.

(EDIT: In respond to GrumpyGel's posting, Post #2)

When I switch engine on, the ABS light do come on for a brief time, then goes off. ABS warning light is in good working order.

I have now found out one possible problem related to the 2 Amigos lights on my dashboard. So hopefully will get it sorted out.

When you say 3 Amigos is more common than 2 Amigos, do you imply that a Freelander can have either the 2 Amigos (rare) or 3 Amigos (more common), but Discovery usually only always have 3 Amigos?

Surely that when you say you saw the 2 Amigos briefly on your car after you got stuck on a gravel bank, that is normal operation because you are on a gravel bank? My 2 Amigos always happens when I am on a dry level road surface, and when I brake to slow down. (Not all the time, sometimes here or there once in a while, but always on dry level road, not off road, including gravel bank.)

Major Eazy said:

When I switch engine on, the ABS light do come on for a brief time, then goes off. ABS warning light is in good working order.

I have now found out one possible problem related to the 2 Amigos lights on my dashboard. So hopefully will get it sorted out.

When you say 3 Amigos is more common than 2 Amigos, do you imply that a Freelander can have either the 2 Amigos (rare) or 3 Amigos (more common), but Discovery usually only always have 3 Amigos?

Surely that when you say you saw the 2 Amigos briefly on your car after you got stuck on a gravel bank, that is normal operation because you are on a gravel bank? My 2 Amigos always happens when I am on a dry level road surface, and when I brake to slow down. (Not all the time, sometimes here or there once in a while, but always on dry level road, not off road, including gravel bank.)

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See post 3

Nodge68 said:

You can have 1, 2 or 3 Amegos, depending on the fault at the time.
There's a list somewhere on my database. I'll look it out later.

I need to know the year, model, transmission type to.

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Oh hello. You posted yours just seconds before I posted mine in respond to the other member.

So a Freelander can have either a 2 or 3 Amigos after all? Thanks.

Nodge68 said:

You can have 1, 2, 3 or 4 Amegos, depending on the fault at the time.
There's a list somewhere on my database. I'll look it out later.

I need to know the year, model, transmission type to.

Click to expand...

Oh, it's a 2005 Freelander TD4 manual.

I keep reading major easy's posts with a Russion accent for some reason.

Col

Funnily enough I had the TC & orange HDC lamps on today. On a sealed road and just come off a longish down hill section and they came on. I stopped at the next intersection and briefly switched off and restarted - no joy. Carried on to home - about 30km. Switched off and left it for a few minutes - restarted and hey presto no lamps on. Don't know why it does that but it has happened before. When off the seal I find big bumps and rough ground can bring them on too.

htr said:

Funnily enough I had the TC & orange HDC lamps on today. On a sealed road and just come off a longish down hill section and they came on. I stopped at the next intersection and briefly switched off and restarted - no joy. Carried on to home - about 30km. Switched off and left it for a few minutes - restarted and hey presto no lamps on. Don't know why it does that but it has happened before. When off the seal I find big bumps and rough ground can bring them on too.

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When my 2 Amigos (TC and HDC!) lights comes on, I find that at the moment, the best course of action is...

Stop somewhere safe. Usually either pull up at the side of the street, park at a free car park, or if lucky enough to stop at a junction when the red light is against you, or in a traffic jam when all cars stopped. When your car is totally stopped, tap the brake pedal (not too hard, just either softly or firmly), and the lights actually went out. (In your case, if I stopped at next intersection, I would have tapped the brake pedal instead of quick restart.)

I assumed that if either the TC or the HDC! lights were to be flashing, then it is a case of stop car somewhere, switch engine off, take a few minutes break to let the car's own brakes cool down due to overheating.

I'm not sure what option to take if it was 3 Amigos as it had not yet happened to me, for all I know the 2 Amigos and the 3 Amigos are two totally different problems.

Yes, 2 & 3 Amigos are definitely different problems - and there are different problems for each of them. The only way to know why the lights are lit is to plug a code reader in. Most problems can not be sorted just by turning the engine off and on, waiting or tapping the brake peddle - you are lucky if they can. Most problems are because something has actually broke!

I've had 2 'episodes' of 3 Amigos 'proper' (ie when the lights come on and won't turn off). Both times was because the shuttle valves in the ABS modulator (pump/box of tricks) had packed a sad. Both times I replaced the modulator. I, like @htr am running the Wabco ABS system in our 1990's Freelanders. You'll be running the Teves Mk25 unit used in the 2002+ cars. The last time the 3 Amigos were shining brightly when the car clicked over 100K miles, I also had the hand brake on in this pic...



The other time was when I got stuck on the gravel bank. I don't know what caused it that time, but after being pulled off it the 3 Amigos were lit. A little while later they changed to 2 Amigos and a while (10 or 20kms) after that all the lights went out. I suppose it may be that I got it wrong to start with and there were only 2 lit instead of 3. I may have just looked down at the dash and seen the lights and assumed 3 because that's what normally gets lit. At the time I was more interested in navigating my way off the river bed.



You can see all the possible reasons for the Amigos in the Rave Workshop Manual for Freelander. There's info on where to download and run it here...

https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/rave-disk-maintenance-manual.260227/

It is possible to roughly identify the cause of lights.
There's table on page 217 of the manual. This table helps a bit, but can't be as accurate as a code reader.

If you want a quick, cheap, easy fix for two amigos (that may work but no promises) is to replace the brake light switch. Otherwise follow Nodge's advice.

Might be worth checking to see whether the brake light comes on when you depress the pedal...?

Here's the faults table. Follow which lights are on and go from there.

rob_bell said:

Might be worth checking to see whether the brake light comes on when you depress the pedal...?

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In my case the brake lights worked normally. There were no indications of an issue with the brake light switch so I was sceptical it was the fault but after replacing the switch no more two amigos.

That's strange... is there a separate sensor signal independent of the brake light lamp circuit then? I need to have a look at the wiring diagram!

rob_bell said:

Might be worth checking to see whether the brake light comes on when you depress the pedal...?

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I had the TWO amigos recently - took the standard advice and changed the brake switch - bingo - result. My brake lights had been working fine by the way - I took it to pieces and could see one contact of a pair that made to a little spring loaded bridge was arced/eroded explaining why I had the fault somewhat intermittently. Can't get my head around what my little truck's brain needed the various contact paths through that switch for but suffice it to say it was happy with a new switch.
A tip on fitting the new switch - the actuating rod is pulled out slightly and gets pushed back to it's correct position when the pedal is released - this makes it almost impossible to bayonet click in the new switch without holding down the brake pedal - knowing that makes it the work of seconds - learning that - - - - dont ask

rob_bell said:

That's strange... is there a separate sensor signal independent of the brake light lamp circuit then? I need to have a look at the wiring diagram!

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The post 2000 cars use a duel contact switch. This has both Normally Open (NO) and Normally Close (NC) contacts. The NO feeds the brake light relay and the ABS ECU. The NC contact just feed the ABS ECU.
So the ABS ECU can monitor if there's a fault with the circuit. If either switch doesn't do what the ECU is expecting, it put a light on.

GrumpyGel said:

Yes, 2 & 3 Amigos are definitely different problems - and there are different problems for each of them. The only way to know why the lights are lit is to plug a code reader in. Most problems can not be sorted just by turning the engine off and on, waiting or tapping the brake peddle - you are lucky if they can. Most problems are because something has actually broke!

Click to expand...

It's good to know that there is a difference between the 2 and 3 Amigos. Sometimes I ask Google for information on TC and HDC! warning lights (at that time did not know it was referenced as "Amigos"), Google tend to display result related to the 3 Amigos instead of 2 Amigos. I just wanted to be sure of getting the right answers. I've now found out the problems, and plan to have it fixed, so until then, stopping the car and tap the brake pedals is just a temporary quick fix, specially since it is rarely used at all, mostly I get the 2 Amigos once every week or two.