Diesel in TD5 Engine Oil...just how common and Turner Engineering Heads

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tyclyd

Active Member
Posts
178
Location
Near Builth Wells
Following on from my spectacular turbo explosion yesterday on the A55, I have now found that I have the diesel in engine oil problem. Short options on strip down may be new seals (best case scenario) or a new head (worst case scenario). Question is... just how common is this mode of failure (I have seen a few older posts relating to this) and considering my 2005 TD5 has just 61,000 on the clock and is not thrashed has anyone any experience of the new Turner Engineering strengthened heads and what the best way of stopping this happening again?
 
ive had this 3 times now.....not the same engine though...one even bent a conrod as the piston made its bid for freedom
As to the cause,thats simple...a leaking injector,the seal weeps and fills the bore which eventually shows as diesel in the sump...or it stays in the bore and you get a hydraulic lock and the resulting bill for whatever the engine lunched on at the time of this fantastic event
ive a theory...and i cant prove it...but i believei ts biodiesel that eats the injector seals,by bio diesel i dont mean throwing the odd bottle of veg oil into the tank,but proper bought at the pumps'bio diesel'as if you look at how its made then youl see the chemicals that go into the blend/wash are peroxides etc and i believe that these slowly eat the seals.As ive only come across it on vehicles ide bought to sell on then although they have FSH/low miles etc one never knows what fuel they have been run on..but its sure put me off running a TD5 as my'own'vehicle
 
The problems were with the pre 2000 TD5 heads.
Apparently Land Rover "solved" the problem on the later heads.
You need to confirm if the diesel is getting in to the oil via the injector seals and/or a cracked fuel gallery in the head before you write the head off. The only real way is for the dealer to do a static pressure test on the fuel gallery with all injectors present. I'd be inclined to watch them do it as otherwise the easiest thing for them to say is the head is knackered and bill you for a new one when it may just be dodgy injector seals and washers which are pennies for new ones.
As for bio diesel eating the seals I can see how this would be possible for the O rings but not for the copper washers. The fuel system runs at about 60 psi so it does not take long to dilute your sump oil via a leaking O ring. Another good reason to check your dip stick regularly as elevated sump oil levels are an early indication.
 
Many thanks both. As mine is a 2005 TD5 I hope the head is the newer revised design. Turner Engineering tell me they have new 'spanish heads' which are much stronger than any LandRover part and have them in stock at around £1500 delivered - I am on my knees hoping its just the washer and seals... I have never used BioDiesel buts its an interesting theory
 
The problems were with the pre 2000 TD5 heads.
Apparently Land Rover "solved" the problem on the later heads.
You need to confirm if the diesel is getting in to the oil via the injector seals and/or a cracked fuel gallery in the head before you write the head off. The only real way is for the dealer to do a static pressure test on the fuel gallery with all injectors present. I'd be inclined to watch them do it as otherwise the easiest thing for them to say is the head is knackered and bill you for a new one when it may just be dodgy injector seals and washers which are pennies for new ones.
As for bio diesel eating the seals I can see how this would be possible for the O rings but not for the copper washers. The fuel system runs at about 60 psi so it does not take long to dilute your sump oil via a leaking O ring. Another good reason to check your dip stick regularly as elevated sump oil levels are an early indication.
Dont know who was trying to sell you that theory,but I have a 2004 TD5 Defender in my workshop at the moment,with a cracked head,about 6" more "Oil" on the dipstick than it should have.60k miles on the clock,I thought a replacement head would sort it till I checked the piston protustions - most of them dont ! It ran on the oil/fuel mix uncontrolled for about 2mins before it was stalled.
One dead engine,just about to order a replacement from Turners as LR dont have any in stock - plus the Turner one will have one of the Spanish AMC heads which have thicker walls around the EUI holes according to Richard Turner.
Bring back TDI's !
 
like i said.....i cant be certain....but having had it happen a few times and from what ive read/know im convinced its bio diesel that causes it,but then again im sure i saw elvis in the chippy too
 
Following on from my blown turbo post and diesel in the engine oil sub post on Monday (Defender forum) my mechanic has phoned me today to say he has identified the cause of my problem. I have a porous head around number 2 injector. Total cost for repair plus the new turbo will be around £2500...
I am going to go back to Land rover – the defender is an October 2005 model with 61,000 on the clock and a FSH plus intermediate oil changes. What would be really useful is any contact with other TD5 owners who have had the same problem – I understand LR may give goodwill payments but I want to present the strongest case I can to get something towards my £1200 Turner engineering replacement.
PM if you have been affected or know anything about this please and I’ll feedback on the response I get from Land rover
 
Following on from my blown turbo post and diesel in the engine oil sub post on Monday (Defender forum) my mechanic has phoned me today to say he has identified the cause of my problem. I have a porous head around number 2 injector. Total cost for repair plus the new turbo will be around £2500...
I am going to go back to Land rover – the defender is an October 2005 model with 61,000 on the clock and a FSH plus intermediate oil changes. What would be really useful is any contact with other TD5 owners who have had the same problem – I understand LR may give goodwill payments but I want to present the strongest case I can to get something towards my £1200 Turner engineering replacement.
PM if you have been affected or know anything about this please and I’ll feedback on the response I get from Land rover

Good luck with LR tyclyd, I feel for you. that is one hell of a lot of cash. If you don't get anywhere I think I'd go for a second hand engine and rebuild it from that or just drop it in.
 

Hi Shifty,
Well I had a look throgh the Rave today and replacing the O'rings and sealing washers is more complex than I expected, with at least 3 specialist tools identified. :eek: When you've done this before did you replace all the rocker shaft mounting and rocker adjustment screws as the Rave specifies or did you reuse them all?

Do you know anywhere you can rent or buy the LR tooling? (I did see the section in the link on the injector exctraction workaround.)

Cheers,
 
The only specialist tools I used were a torque wrench, my grey matter, and years of experience working all over Africa. They dont have access to all new parts and keep their motors running for many hundreds of thousands of miles with whatever they've got to hand. New parts are OK if you've got the cash but with care many are perfectly reusable time and time again. Always replace worn parts, Nyloc nuts, and critical stuff such as head bolts etc. Also high torque items are designed to stretch on installation so often reuseing them is not a good idea if you have the choice as they will eventually snap. Of course all of the above is at your own risk but it works for me.

Once you remove the injector clamps the only thing keeping them in place is the O ring seal. I used a small pry bar to carefully lift the injectors from their seats. Dont lever on the solenoid part of the injector. You can also disconnect the loom from the ALL of injectors and crank the engine with the clamps loosened which can unseat any stubborn ones using the engine compression.

I used a thin bladed paint scraper to ease the copper washers from the injectors and a small electricians screwdriver to hook the O rings off. I then used some wire wool soaked in parafin to careffully clean the tips of the injectors as they had a slight build up of carbon. New O rings and washers slide on with finger pressure. You may have to use a smear of copper grease to hold the new copper washers in place as you insert the injector into its seat. Clean the injector seats in the head and make sure the injectors go back in the same cylinder position as they came out as they are coded to the ECU.

I re used the injector adjusters and lock nuts as they were not worn in any way.
I cleaned the rocker bolts and holes and reused them at the correct torque with a touch of non setting thread lock compound. I also reused the injector clamp bolts.

Hardest bit was getting the new rocker cover gasket to seal but once again I used a small wallpaper roller to give the thinnest of coats of some domestic silicone sealant and Bobs your mothers brother. Dont be tempted to over tighten the cover bolts as they are only torqued to something like 7 ft/lb from memory.

Like all things you have not done before it sounds complicated but once you get into it you'll wonder what all the fuss was about. It aint rocket science. Take your time, think through what you are doing, make sure the injector adjustments are done to the book, and you'll be fine.

One last thing. DONT be tempted to fire the engine with the rocker cover off to try and look for any leaks around the injectors. You will pump all of your engine oil all over your engine bay and the garage floor in about 10 seconds. I know because thats what happened to me. Took me two days to clean things up and I'm still finding oily bits - normally with my favourite shirt or jeans.
 
Good luck with LR tyclyd, I feel for you. that is one hell of a lot of cash. If you don't get anywhere I think I'd go for a second hand engine and rebuild it from that or just drop it in.

Thanks for that - its a massive cost but what can anyone do? I managed to get £500 from my AA Warantee and have been digging around - Honest John (Telegraph) says... "By 2007 cracked cylinder heads were becoming a very common problem on TD5s. So much so that the supply of replacement heads became used up." So perhaps there is a real widespread problem.

I would still like to hear from anyone who has been affected - please PM me.
 
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Following on from my blown turbo post and diesel in the engine oil sub post on Monday (Defender forum) my mechanic has phoned me today to say he has identified the cause of my problem. I have a porous head around number 2 injector. Total cost for repair plus the new turbo will be around £2500...
I am going to go back to Land rover – the defender is an October 2005 model with 61,000 on the clock and a FSH plus intermediate oil changes. What would be really useful is any contact with other TD5 owners who have had the same problem – I understand LR may give goodwill payments but I want to present the strongest case I can to get something towards my £1200 Turner engineering replacement.
PM if you have been affected or know anything about this please and I’ll feedback on the response I get from Land rover
I guess nothing ventured nothing gained but LR has changed hands since the TD5 was introduced and before then they had plenty of time to recall or rectify the known issues with the TD5 heads. There are also known issues with oil pump drive bolts coming loose and wrecking some TD5 engines but once again nothing from LR.
Good luck with chasing them for some recompense but as the current Indian owners are looking to the UK government to bail LR out of a hole then you may have a fight on your hands. Because my motor had been through several owners I decided to swallow the cost of a new head and move on.
You could almost buy a used TD5 Disco for similar money and use the engine/parts and sell what you dont need on eBay to cover your costs.
 
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The only specialist tools I used were a torque wrench, my grey matter, and years of experience working all over Africa. They dont have access to all new parts and keep their motors running for many hundreds of thousands of miles with whatever they've got to hand. New parts are OK if you've got the cash but with care many are perfectly reusable time and time again. Always replace worn parts, Nyloc nuts, and critical stuff such as head bolts etc. Also high torque items are designed to stretch on installation so often reuseing them is not a good idea if you have the choice as they will eventually snap. Of course all of the above is at your own risk but it works for me.

Once you remove the injector clamps the only thing keeping them in place is the O ring seal. I used a small pry bar to carefully lift the injectors from their seats. Dont lever on the solenoid part of the injector. You can also disconnect the loom from the ALL of injectors and crank the engine with the clamps loosened which can unseat any stubborn ones using the engine compression.

I used a thin bladed paint scraper to ease the copper washers from the injectors and a small electricians screwdriver to hook the O rings off. I then used some wire wool soaked in parafin to careffully clean the tips of the injectors as they had a slight build up of carbon. New O rings and washers slide on with finger pressure. You may have to use a smear of copper grease to hold the new copper washers in place as you insert the injector into its seat. Clean the injector seats in the head and make sure the injectors go back in the same cylinder position as they came out as they are coded to the ECU.

I re used the injector adjusters and lock nuts as they were not worn in any way.
I cleaned the rocker bolts and holes and reused them at the correct torque with a touch of non setting thread lock compound. I also reused the injector clamp bolts.

Hardest bit was getting the new rocker cover gasket to seal but once again I used a small wallpaper roller to give the thinnest of coats of some domestic silicone sealant and Bobs your mothers brother. Dont be tempted to over tighten the cover bolts as they are only torqued to something like 7 ft/lb from memory.

Like all things you have not done before it sounds complicated but once you get into it you'll wonder what all the fuss was about. It aint rocket science. Take your time, think through what you are doing, make sure the injector adjustments are done to the book, and you'll be fine.

One last thing. DONT be tempted to fire the engine with the rocker cover off to try and look for any leaks around the injectors. You will pump all of your engine oil all over your engine bay and the garage floor in about 10 seconds. I know because thats what happened to me. Took me two days to clean things up and I'm still finding oily bits - normally with my favourite shirt or jeans.

Excellent write up, thanks for taking the trouble much appreciated. :)
 
Hi there. I have the same problem with a 2003 Discovery that I bought from a dealer 8 weeks ago. Diesel and oil were pouring out after 5 days so it went back to dealer to be fixed. After having injector seals and O rings replaced the diesel is still making it's way in to the oil. It's at the garage now (this is the garage that the dealer decided to take it to) and they say they've replaced the seals again and it's still leaking but they have no idea where from. I'm tearing my hair out over it as the garage says that the original work was as a 'gesture of good will' and subsequent work will need to be paid for. I think I'm protected by the Sale of Goods act but either way I just want the car fixed. Should I suggest to the garage that they check for a cracked head as they don't seem to have any ideas past replacing the seals? This is one of the few times that I wish I had a man to sort things like this out for me. The garage seem to find my frustrations rather amusing. Grrrrrrrrr.......
 
Yep. Sounds like the head is cracked.
If changing the injector seals makes no difference then the only place that diesel can get into the sump oil on a TD5 is via a cracked fuel gallery in the head. Only way to diagnose is to have the fuel gallery pressurised and look for a pressure drop or to put some special UV dye into the diesel and look for traces of it in and around the injectors.
Either way it takes specialist equipment which a pukka Landrover dealer should have.
Just checking for compression problems or head gasket leaks will show no problems as the crack is internal.
 
Have to say I would agree - the head may be cracked or pourous but in any event the common rail lets derv out and it mixes with the oil - LR are selling refurbished heads at around £1280 and the turner heads (with valves) are around £1050 - its an expensive fix...:eek:
 
Thought I would just round of this post... have been in detailed correspondence with Land Rover since the cylinder head on my 3 ½ year old 90 gave up with 61,000 on the clock. Excellent service from BG Land Rovers in the repair but Landrover (GB) have now effectively washed their corporate hands of my vehicle – no offer of any part payment in terms of goodwill for the component failure (even though we both know that there was a problem with TD5 porous heads around the common fuel rail). I have had a nice letter offering me £1500 of a new Landrover so I can buy a nice new car... heard a rumour though that the new TDCi engine was not that reliable... surely some mistake...
 
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