P38A Clutch

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Grrrrrr

Grrrrrr

Technician, Bodgit & Scarper Ltd
Full Member
Posts
19,309
Location
Buckinghamshire, UK. ('95 DT)
Hi all,

Some of this is for my benefit, some is searching for ideas.

LATEST

Late one night recently I was heading up hill when the clutch started slipping. It happened in all gears. I managed to get up the first hill but as fate would have it I had a shed load of hills to get over that night and before long the inevitable happened: no drive. Looking under the car I could see there was smoke coming from the bellhousing a smell of burnt clutch. The car hasn't driven since. I can get it into gear but nothing happens. It revs freely but no movement, albeit it does seem to be trying to move.

HISTORY

The P38 manual is a rare beast although somewhat more common on the diesel. Despite this problems turns up more than you'd think and it seems to be a troublesome setup. I seem to remember quite a few people with the same recurrent issue over the years and I've now joined their ranks. A few examples here:

https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/p38-clutch-problems.158871/page-2
https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/strange-clutch-slipping-type-behaviour.270485/
https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/p38-clutch-slipping.302348/
https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/p38a-clutch-alignment-tool.316706/

Approximately 6 years ago, soon after I got the car the spiral clutch pins went. When I got the gearbox off I found the clutch was pretty much brand new. All replaced (including slave cylinder and reassembled.

Approximately 4 years later my DMF went. Arse. Gearbox out again and replaced the clutch etc. In fact, replaced just about everything including rear oil seal.

Nearly 2 years after that, clutch burns out. It hasn't even done 10k miles. I've always driven high milers and I've never, ever had to replace a clutch before.

So, that's about 3 clutches in 6 years. The ABS modulator has been replaced in that time so I don't think that is related. I've not had time to take the gearbox out (AGAIN) yet but I'm struggling to think what might have caused the clutch to go so fast. It seemed to be working fine until a few weeks ago. It did slip a little in 3rd gear one day and so I replaced the slave and master cylinder on the grounds they were the only parts not new. I've decided I probably won't bother fixing the car unless I can spot something untoward about the clutch mechanism. I guess the PO might have stuffed something and I've not noticed but why do other people seem to have recurrent issues? So is there a part that is wearing on these and causing the clutches to fail after a certain mileage / age? Any ideas welcome.

PART NUMBERS (for my reference more than anything else).

Clutch Kit BMW TD (Valeo) STC50512VALEO (contains Clutch friction plate, Pressure plate, Release bearing)
New spiral pins = Clutch Fork Roll Pin P38 2.5TD & V8 (Genuine) FTC1692LR
Spigot bearing = Crankshaft Rear Spigot Bearing STC2079
DMF = LUK - ERR5205 or 415006810 (LUK flywheel from Eurocarparts - you have to search for part number 336670010)
Gearbox Mounts P38 (Genuine)? ANR262

Other Clutch kits

Land Rover (~£450) STC50512
Borg & Beck (~£160) HK6589
A. P. (~£160) 641670040 on Eurocarparts website. [AP = Automotive Parts.]

-------------------------------------------------

EDIT. It was the clutch lever bushes where they go through the bell housing. They should be tight-fitting and Teflon coated. On mine the Teflon had worn off (and the rubber seal was also worn) allowing dirt/friction material in there which causes more resistance than the pressure plate fingers can overcome so you're essentially riding the clutch all the time. So, whenever you do the clutch check those bushes. If the spiral clutch pins have ever snapped that's an early warning of wear and I would change the bushes immediately. You need FTC1010 and FTC2169. The rubber seal can be obtained from Wych Bearings, nitrile rubber 25x40x7.

http://www.wychbearings.co.uk/25x40x7-r23-nbr_oil_seal.html
 
Last edited:
No contamination. There's photos in one of the threads. I replaced the oil seal when I was in there doing the spigot bearing and no drips on the outside.

Pressure plate etc all replaced so brand new. The Valeo kit comes as a 3 in 1 kit and 1 guy went through 2 of them PDQ.

Clutch is self-adjusting. It seemed to go all the way back on the lever. As far as I can tell on the outside anyway. I'd have thought wear on the slave connecting rod or the clutch fork itself would make it harder to lift off, not the opposite. Similarly, air in the system or the bust spring in my slave cylinder (forgot to mention that!).
 
Is the release fork shaft moving freely? When my pins sheared I took the shaft out and copperslipped it while I had the housing off. A couple of grease nipples for the bearing areas wouldn't have gone amiss. Pull the slave cylinder off and check for free movement. Good luck.;)
 
Last edited:
tomcat59alan said:
Is the release fork shaft moving freely? When my pins sheared I took the shaft out and copperslipped it while I had the housing off. I couple of grease nipples for the bearing areas wouldn't have gone amiss. Pull the slave cylinder off and check for free movement. Good luck.;)
Click to expand...

Seems to be. I did the same as you when the box was out.
 
RangeRoller dt said:
Problem is no one has pulled apart and seen inside a brand new working one so how can you tell difference? You have to trust RAVE which can be sketchy. 1st one lasted so something changed from there
Click to expand...

A clutch is a clutch, is a clutch. Apart from slight variations once you've seen one, you've seen them all.
 
Purely guessing here, but could it be possible that the original pressure plate had a stronger spring due to the weight of the P38's but a lighter spring for lighter clutch on bmw fitments?
Maybe fitting a bmw one is the wrong thing to do?
Just a thought fwiw!
 
RangeRoller dt said:
I’ve done couple but not P38. How come originals last more than two years if they are same is puzzles me. Grrr seems to have noticed a trend, one I hope I never suffer from :eek:
Click to expand...

Did one on a Disco few years back, failed after a month or so, fingers had not been tempered and curled over. A lot of replacement stuff these days is crap.
 
RangeRoller dt said:
You get a good un, use it , get another one same brand but in that time they’ve compromised for cheaper options. It’s all same sh*te in different boxes these days I think. Even the good stuff
Click to expand...

Yep at one time if you went for Borg and Beck you knew it was top notch, now a clutch in a Borg and Beck box may not even be a genuine item, the chinks and Indians are very good at making boxes. You will have heard the story i told about the Indian Canberra bomber.
 
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