Car not Starting - stranded in France

You can speak to the bank, but writing a cheque out in France is very different from writing a cheque out in the UK. Hence why I was able to write out a substantial 5-figure cheque for our motorhome and drive off in it the same day!! I couldn't possibly imagine doing that in the UK.

That's the one I was confused about. As far as my French goes, I understand it as "repairing the starter motor" but I thought they said it wasn't the starter motor?? So how can they repair something that wasn't broken? Jason is probably the best person to ask to make sure the translation into English is correct.

Aside from that, the rest of the bill seems fair enough - aside from their incompetence in actually being able to track down the fault, and charging you for unnecessary work - that is the same in garages anywhere. In the UK you'd still pay for work on a car even if it didn't actually fix the fault, so you can't expect it to be any different here.

Like you say, find out what the real fault is and then go back to the garage and argue your case, I wouldn't get your hopes up though!

Matt

mmaddock said:

You can speak to the bank, but writing a cheque out in France is very different from writing a cheque out in the UK. Hence why I was able to write out a substantial 5-figure cheque for our motorhome and drive off in it the same day!! I couldn't possibly imagine doing that in the UK.

That's the one I was confused about. As far as my French goes, I understand it as "repairing the starter motor" but I thought they said it wasn't the starter motor?? So how can they repair something that wasn't broken? Jason is probably the best person to ask to make sure the translation into English is correct.

Aside from that, the rest of the bill seems fair enough - aside from their incompetence in actually being able to track down the fault, and charging you for unnecessary work - that is the same in garages anywhere. In the UK you'd still pay for work on a car even if it didn't actually fix the fault, so you can't expect it to be any different here.

Like you say, find out what the real fault is and then go back to the garage and argue your case, I wouldn't get your hopes up though!

Matt

Click to expand...

I think Matt has summed it up very well!

You can't stop a cheque in FRANCE unless it's been stolen! You have agreed to all work as you have signed estimates every time they have proposed to do work.Very sorry but you have been stuffed & it will be very difficult to get anything out of them with out a long drawn out affaire involving car being looked at by a "Expert" etc..........

the 'remise' thing means they repaired it although it may mean they just checked it.. i'll ask ant as he works in a french garage

"Remise en etat" means to put it back to it's original working condition.

duz that mean "They programmed a new zapper. Now engine wont turn over."?

Jason2 said:

"Remise en etat" means to put it back to it's original working condition.

Click to expand...

and " put it back to its original working condition" mean to repair it

reet ave just spoke to Ant and " remise en etat" means its bin reconditioned

Well the English mechanic has the car now.
He's run into a problem. Seems the car was orginally a righthand drive and was changed to lefthand in 1998. He's looking for the spider unit. (The St Brieuc gargae didn't find it either - so didn't fit the bypass I gave them).
It's not behind the dash/radio/heater as described on forum.

It was most likely moved during the RH/LH change over. Has anyone got any idea as to where they might of moved/hidden the spider unit?

Cheers David

The mechanic has spoken to LR UK and they say the car was initially intended for the Japanese market and therefore would not have been fitted with spider. However it was held back - whatever that means.

Also it seems that the electronic injector pump is not allowing diesel to pass (I assume it has some sort of solenoid inside). Can the reprogrammed fob or something else have “closed” the injector pump down??

I think the injector pump is fitted some sort of immobiliser. Can this be deactivated somehow?
How is the injector pump immobiliser connected to the key and or fob and or spider or anything else!

Bloody hell – I think I’ve found the meaning of life!!!

and this is AFTER the garage sed they had fixed it - blurry eck!

DCooper said:

The mechanic has spoken to LR UK and they say the car was initially intended for the Japanese market and therefore would not have been fitted with spider. However it was held back - whatever that means.

Also it seems that the electronic injector pump is not allowing diesel to pass (I assume it has some sort of solenoid inside). Can the reprogrammed fob or something else have “closed” the injector pump down??

I think the injector pump is fitted some sort of immobiliser. Can this be deactivated somehow?
How is the injector pump immobiliser connected to the key and or fob and or spider or anything else!

Bloody hell – I think I’ve found the meaning of life!!!

Click to expand...

Normaly yeh blipper opens the doors & disactivates alarm, then when you put your key in the ignition there is another sensor that recognises that key/blipper to vehicle.If this sensor dunt recongnise key it wont let engine start by (and I'm guessing here) not opening diesel shut off solenoid,not sending power to starter,blocking ECU!

I take some of that back as I've just done a test on mine:Opened car with blip,then took blip off key ring and chucked it over a hedge,put key in ignition and she cracked up first turn!!!!!!!!!

Starter & Solenoid are easy just run a + from the battery, have you done a search on this site as there was a guy on last year that had exactly the same problem bar the fact that he did'nt jump in the drink with his keys!!

Thanks Janson2.
I've been searching for the other thread you mentioned. Haven't found it yet. If you can give me a few pointers perhaps I 'll track it down.

Cheers

PS could the programming of the blipper do to/reset all these sensors?

DCooper said:

Thanks Janson2.
I've been searching for the other thread you mentioned. Haven't found it yet. If you can give me a few pointers perhaps I 'll track it down.

Cheers

PS could the programming of the blipper do to/reset all these sensors?

Click to expand...

This has got to be a wind up as I can't believe you still not got it started

Read what clutdust say's

"one way of getting around this is to permenantly earth the starter relay, if you have a Tdi then the immobiliser only stops the engine from cranking (unless it has EDC then it does the injection pump aswell).

The starter relay is located behind the offside kick panel trim (next to throttle pedal), there's a few relays in there, the starter one has a red/white wire going to it, I cant remember the other colours off hand but you need to earth out the earth wire to this, its normally earthed by the immobiliser ECU.

The ECU that controlls central locking is located behind the glove box and is green in colour, also known as the 10AS ECU"

http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f8/disco-immobiliser-question-35932.html?highlight=Immobiliser

Land Rover

The LR is still not fixed.
A garage in the West Midlands changed it from RH to LH drive in 1998. Still hoping to track down the spider unit, the mechanic over here phoned LR UK to ask them about wiring diagrams (perhaps used in the changeover), but they don't have any!

Also since the passenger door lock was buggered by failed break in attempt, the mechanic has disassembled the door to tap in the emergency key access code, but to no avail. He's tried phoning the LR garage in St Brieuc (no luck yet), in the off chance that the EKA code is different to one I know (and incidentally the same as LR UK told him).

I was sent the following email. I thought you may like to see it:

".....Hi, sounds like you are having fun ! If your car is a 96 model and auto I would not expect it to have smart spider immobilsation - for 96 auto models were fitted with the Bosch EDC injection system.This is a fly by wire system and the EDC ECU has the immobilisation built into it.When new fobs are coded to the security ECU on this model you have to perform a "Security relearn" on the engine ECU.This is done via Testbook and takes a few minutes.
It sounds like the techs working on your car are not very familiar with the model as they should have been able to read the EKA code from the security ECU.(Emergency Key Access code) With this you can lock/unlock the car as shown in the cars handbook to re-mobilise and start the car.Can you look at the pump and try to ID the type,the EDC pump has a fairly smooth top cover with a cable about 10mm thick going into the side of the pump near the top.The standard Bosch VE pump has the throttle cable going to it with a "busy" array of springs/switches etc in a sort of tower arrangement toward the front of the pump.
The EDC one also has a cable going to it but all it does is pull the kick down cable that goes back to the gearbox. Also the EDC one will have a 2 core wire coming off number 4 injector going down to a connector at the back of the engine.E-mail me a photo of the engine if you are not sure.
The EKA code would have been written on a credit card size piece of paper and given to the original owner,it is also held by LR Ltd whose maindealers can access via the net.The safest way to get it though is via Testbook from the actual car,incase the ECU has been replaced and LR's database has not been updated.
It also occurs to me that the car may still need to have the security relearn done as it has been through a fob programme sequence,and I think this destroys the link. Either way 10 mins on Testbook should be all thats needed. The stop solenoid on the injector pump will not open until the security ECU is fully mobilised,although the engine will still crank.
Hope this helps......"

Well, is this the end? My many thanks to all who have helped/contributed to this thread. What started out with a wet fob ended up costing me over 1200 euros! This of course does not include the subsequent car hire etc (1000+) and my own/friends time trying to fix the problem.
Why did it cost me so much, you ask?
Well that lies at the door of the Ford garage St Brieuc, or more succinctly what happened behind their doors!. It now seems that when they programmed to new fob they ERASED the memory of the 10AS ECU (I think that its tech name), this unit sends a code to the main ECU to tell it that its ok switch things like the injector pump etc. Without this code to car is dead, so the work I paid for after their first incompetence would not have been necessary had they done the job right in the first place! All that crap about the starter motor and then the injector pump needing to be replaced was thus a load of bull!
What have the Ford garage got to say? Well his passing remarks where. “If wish to dispute the bill there’s tel number on the back of your bill”
My problem is that if I pursue this matter is:
a). I signed paperwork giving them the go ahead investigate the problem, so therefore “AGREED” to pay their subsequent charges;
b). And I'm sure they'll dispute the fact that it was THEY who erased the memory of the 10AS ECU in the first place (if they know what is, that is).

Is it any use me contacting LandRover UK to complain? Unlikely, I think, that is, if they are no longer a LandRover dealership/franchise, (as they told me AFTER they messed things up). However, when I passed last week, there were LRs in for repair.

If anyone has similar problems, I recommend you contact the company that diagnosed/solved my problem. They are Avon Diagnostics Ltd. They have a web site Home. Their service has been second to none! I also have the name and addresses of one or two “english” LR mechanics in 50KM of St Brieuc if anyone needs them.


Again many thanks to all.
PS I will post again if anything comes up about a refund etc
David

cipx2 said:

............
On the other hand I sincerely hope they didn't mess up the ECM settings when they programed the new key fob.
................

Click to expand...

It seems I was a bit of a bad prophet.

If you have a very solid proof of that then you can go for it. Specially if you signed that paper after they programmed the new fob.
If not, it will be another waste of time, (more) money and brain cells. Better do some extra hours or something to recover part of the loss, at least you'll save some brain cells.
You can forget about Land Rover - UK, France, Vanuatu or any other. If that's not an authorized LR dealer they can do nothing even if they'd want to.

DCooper said:

Well, is this the end? My many thanks to all who have helped/contributed to this thread. What started out with a wet fob ended up costing me over 1200 euros! This of course does not include the subsequent car hire etc (1000+) and my own/friends time trying to fix the problem.
Why did it cost me so much, you ask?
Well that lies at the door of the Ford garage St Brieuc, or more succinctly what happened behind their doors!. It now seems that when they programmed to new fob they ERASED the memory of the 10AS ECU (I think that its tech name), this unit sends a code to the main ECU to tell it that its ok switch things like the injector pump etc. Without this code to car is dead, so the work I paid for after their first incompetence would not have been necessary had they done the job right in the first place! All that crap about the starter motor and then the injector pump needing to be replaced was thus a load of bull!
What have the Ford garage got to say? Well his passing remarks where. “If wish to dispute the bill there’s tel number on the back of your bill”
My problem is that if I pursue this matter is:
a). I signed paperwork giving them the go ahead investigate the problem, so therefore “AGREED” to pay their subsequent charges;
b). And I'm sure they'll dispute the fact that it was THEY who erased the memory of the 10AS ECU in the first place (if they know what is, that is).

Is it any use me contacting LandRover UK to complain? Unlikely, I think, that is, if they are no longer a LandRover dealership/franchise, (as they told me AFTER they messed things up). However, when I passed last week, there were LRs in for repair.

If anyone has similar problems, I recommend you contact the company that diagnosed/solved my problem. They are Avon Diagnostics Ltd. They have a web site Home. Their service has been second to none! I also have the name and addresses of one or two “english” LR mechanics in 50KM of St Brieuc if anyone needs them.


Again many thanks to all.
PS I will post again if anything comes up about a refund etc
David

Click to expand...

So my E-mail was right then ? I cant believe this took so long to do 10 mins work.

Glad you got it sorted, shame it took so long and cost so much.

DCooper said:

Well, is this the end? My many thanks to all who have helped/contributed to this thread. What started out with a wet fob ended up costing me over 1200 euros! This of course does not include the subsequent car hire etc (1000+) and my own/friends time trying to fix the problem.
Why did it cost me so much, you ask?
Well that lies at the door of the Ford garage St Brieuc, or more succinctly what happened behind their doors!. It now seems that when they programmed to new fob they ERASED the memory of the 10AS ECU (I think that its tech name), this unit sends a code to the main ECU to tell it that its ok switch things like the injector pump etc. Without this code to car is dead, so the work I paid for after their first incompetence would not have been necessary had they done the job right in the first place! All that crap about the starter motor and then the injector pump needing to be replaced was thus a load of bull!
What have the Ford garage got to say? Well his passing remarks where. “If wish to dispute the bill there’s tel number on the back of your bill”
My problem is that if I pursue this matter is:
a). I signed paperwork giving them the go ahead investigate the problem, so therefore “AGREED” to pay their subsequent charges;
b). And I'm sure they'll dispute the fact that it was THEY who erased the memory of the 10AS ECU in the first place (if they know what is, that is).

Is it any use me contacting LandRover UK to complain? Unlikely, I think, that is, if they are no longer a LandRover dealership/franchise, (as they told me AFTER they messed things up). However, when I passed last week, there were LRs in for repair.

If anyone has similar problems, I recommend you contact the company that diagnosed/solved my problem. They are Avon Diagnostics Ltd. They have a web site Home. Their service has been second to none! I also have the name and addresses of one or two “english” LR mechanics in 50KM of St Brieuc if anyone needs them.


Again many thanks to all.
PS I will post again if anything comes up about a refund etc
David

Click to expand...

David

Glad you got it sorted in the end, sorry you got stung by those incompetent bastides at the first garage.

Have you told the Garage all this? Bluff them tell them your going to court unless they cough up!

Dont think that you have much of a case as it's going to be difficult proofing that they wiped the Ecu codes,estimates that you signed are not good as you agreed to work.For 50 euros you could go and see a Avocat (Lawyer) see what he says or get in touch with the "Repression des fraudes" trading standards, send a letter to FORD head office, go on a naked hunger strike out side the Garage in question or as cipx2 says let it lye and kick your self for not having/getting a second fob

Jason

eightinavee said:

So my E-mail was right then ? I cant believe this took so long to do 10 mins work.

Click to expand...

That's France for you!