Cam Belt help please

Hi everyone,

I was wondering can anyone tell me how hard it is to the job, I have done jobs such as new rad, new water pump , p gasket, inter cooler out and cleaned and brakes, all pretty easy stuff i know but money being tight at the moment and not knowing the history of the cam belt that is on , its worrying me now?

I have tried the search but i have not seemed to be able to find a full walk through of the job, any advise would be most welcomed

Its a disco 300 tdi 96 auto and i think its a edc version

Many Thanks

Gaz

Dificutly level depends on how near you are to being a mechanic. If youre ok ish and logical no problem , if not get help.
PS there are guides on here just keep looking.

As cam belts go they're not hard! Just remember to use the timing tools or you could cause timing issues. Main thing to remember is if it goes wrong it won't be cheap. So any doubt get some help, or you'll be crying in your beer

The only hard bit is undoing the crank bolt. The starter motor trick works if you're brave, I'm working on a locking tool design that I can fab' up myself as buying one at £70ish is a bit pricey for an occasional job.

gaz8885 said:

Hi everyone,

I was wondering can anyone tell me how hard it is to the job, I have done jobs such as new rad, new water pump , p gasket, inter cooler out and cleaned and brakes, all pretty easy stuff i know but money being tight at the moment and not knowing the history of the cam belt that is on , its worrying me now?

I have tried the search but i have not seemed to be able to find a full walk through of the job, any advise would be most welcomed

Its a disco 300 tdi 96 auto and i think its a edc version

Many Thanks

Gaz

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Hi Gaz, if you can do all that lot, you can do a cambelt easy, just take your time.

timming tools a must.

whats actually in the timing tool kit, can something not be made up?

just make sure everything is on the marks , and the pump is set to 11 oclock . make sure flywheel is spot on , get someone under it with a screw driver to make sure it stays inline. i made a tool with a grinded down chisel, which works a treat. dont matter if you have to check it ten times , make sure its right.

Paulmitchell1984 said:

whats actually in the timing tool kit, can something not be made up?

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You can use a drill bit to lock the pump, think its 9.5 mm. For the crank you can get a bell housing wading plug get someone to stick it in a lathe and drill a 3/16" hole through the centre, then you screw it in and stick a drill bit in there too! That's it! Pay to double check the measurements cos that's off the top of my head. That's basically the proper tools for peanuts

Paulmitchell1984 said:

whats actually in the timing tool kit, can something not be made up?

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In the kit I bought, you get various sized locking pins, plus the all-important puller for removing the crankshaft pulley and the crankshaft cambelt pulley.

I know they cost money but honestly they make the job so much more straightforward. Have a look on Ebay for "cambelt tool kits" or something similar.

Paulmitchell1984 said:

whats actually in the timing tool kit, can something not be made up?

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It depends how good you are, I didnt use a kit on mine, I just realligned it all to the marks, its piece of **** to do but you need to be 100% confident in your ability to do it like that. The other way to do it is to cut the belt in half down its length whilst still fitted, remove the front half, slide on new belt, cut off rear half of old belt and push the new one all the way on.

The other thing to check is if your engine has the updated belt and pulleys fitted, the original 300TDi had a fundemental flaw with the cambelt where it ran off the pulleys, this was sorted by changing the pulleys for updated items. Do a little search on here about it, it needs to be done if it hasnt been done already, I found this out as my cambelt was on its last legs, I replaced it thinking it was a bad belt and 3 months later this is what it looked like:

Jongould said:

It depends how good you are, I didnt use a kit on mine, I just realligned it all to the marks, its piece of **** to do but you need to be 100% confident in your ability to do it like that. The other way to do it is to cut the belt in half down its length whilst still fitted, remove the front half, slide on new belt, cut off rear half of old belt and push the new one all the way on.

The other thing to check is if your engine has the updated belt and pulleys fitted, the original 300TDi had a fundemental flaw with the cambelt where it ran off the pulleys, this was sorted by changing the pulleys for updated items. Do a little search on here about it, it needs to be done if it hasnt been done already, I found this out as my cambelt was on its last legs, I replaced it thinking it was a bad belt and 3 months later this is what it looked like:

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How good doesn't come into it. Two identical belts can be a slightly different length, this throws out your timing. Yes you can be the lucky guy where the difference is minimal and it's fine or the unlucky one where it all goes perfectly, but it's down on power, smokes and drinks fuel. Check it all you like it'll look spot on! That's why you should use the tools! Home made, bought doesn't matter. Do it properly do it once.
I got sent on a manufacturers cam belt course. They demonstrated exactly that, it put the timing out by over Half a tooth. Enough to screw up your pump timing!!!!!

Diesel Do said:

How good doesn't come into it. Two identical belts can be a slightly different length, this throws out your timing. Yes you can be the lucky guy where the difference is minimal and it's fine or the unlucky one where it all goes perfectly, but it's down on power, smokes and drinks fuel. Check it all you like it'll look spot on! That's why you should use the tools! Home made, bought doesn't matter. Do it properly do it once.
I got sent on a manufacturers cam belt course. They demonstrated exactly that, it put the timing out by over Half a tooth. Enough to screw up your pump timing!!!!!

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Belt length doesnt come into it, its all about the number of teeth and its perfectly fine to do it without locking tools if you have the experience, I have fitted plenty of belts this way and have yet to run into a problem. If you have the tools then yes definitley use them, if you are unsure on what your doing the use them, if you dont feel confident in being able to set up via timing marks then use them but at the end of the day you should always set to the timing marks, if a belt had slipped you would use the timing marks to reset it all, even when using the lock tool you should still check everything lines up to the marks...

As I said its down to experience, I have done loads of cambelts on all sorts of engines, I am confident in my ability, if your not then doing it the correct way and use locks, for me it wasn't worth me paying at the £70 when I didnt need them.

Jongould said:

Belt length doesnt come into it, its all about the number of teeth and its perfectly fine to do it without locking tools if you have the experience, I have fitted plenty of belts this way and have yet to run into a problem. If you have the tools then yes definitley use them, if you are unsure on what your doing the use them, if you dont feel confident in being able to set up via timing marks then use them but at the end of the day you should always set to the timing marks, if a belt had slipped you would use the timing marks to reset it all, even when using the lock tool you should still check everything lines up to the marks...

As I said its down to experience, I have done loads of cambelts on all sorts of engines, I am confident in my ability, if your not then doing it the correct way and use locks, for me it wasn't worth me paying at the £70 when I didnt need them.

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Pumps goes half engine speed that's down to pulley size not no of teeth or belt length! Length between crank and pump will change the pump timing if it's slightly different! So if you're belt is couple of mm different (common between manufacturers) it puts the pump timing out. If you still think I'm talking rubbish ask yourself why I've been on a manufacturers timing belt course! It's because I know what I'm talking about! Your technique is great for old engines that aren't timing critical. It's hit and miss for a pump timed diesel or modern petrol.
Use the tools and do it properly mine cost less than £5 and a pint!

Diesel Do said:

Pumps goes half engine speed that's down to pulley size not no of teeth or belt length! Length between crank and pump will change the pump timing if it's slightly different! So if you're belt is couple of mm different (common between manufacturers) it puts the pump timing out. If you still think I'm talking rubbish ask yourself why I've been on a manufacturers timing belt course! It's because I know what I'm talking about! Your technique is great for old engines that aren't timing critical. It's hit and miss for a pump timed diesel or modern petrol.
Use the tools and do it properly mine cost less than £5 and a pint!

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Erm, are you sure what your saying here? you start of correct by saying its down to pulley size, this can be calculated via the teeth (the teeth remain a constant size so difference in pulleys can be counted in teeth), you then go on to say the size of the belt will make a difference, well im sorry to say thats not true, you could put it a centimeter or a meter away it wouldnt matter, if its a (these are example sizes) 24 tooth pulley running of a 48 tooth camshaft it will always turn at half speed when running on the same belt. The gap between doesnt come into it im afraid, its all about the numbers of teeth of each pulley (or as you correctly said the pulley size itself). You could even run it with a belt with more teeth, all that would happen is the tensioner would take the extra tooths slack. Think of it like links in a bike chain, doesnt matter how long the chain is the gearing is always the same, the derailer will take up the slack.

I know you have been on a manufacturers course but im afraid a course doesnt account for experience and in my workshop I have got over 100 years combined experience. Its all well and good a manufacturer saying this is how they like it done but that doesn't mean its the only correct way to do it.

Going to put my neck on the line and add my 2p worth here.
You are both right, to a degree (pardon the pun)
Jongould is right in as much as the ratio between the pully's will always remain constant regardless of the length of belt.
However, Diesel Do is also right in that, if the belt is fractionally longer or shorter and the teeth of the belt are even slightly over or under sized/spaced, the relationship between the crank and the pump will be out and therefore the timing will be out. Although they will both still rotate at the 2:1 ratio.
Anyway...
When I changed my belt I found that a 9/16 AF bolt (suspension bolt from a Hillman Avenger ) was the correct 9.5mm diameter (or whatever the size is) to use as a locking pin for the pump. I just cut the threaded portion off. And as long as you make sure the crank is at TDC and doesn't move it should be fine.
The bigest pain was finding a torque wrench with a dial gauge to set the tension. Unless someone knows a better way to set this?

PTK said:

Going to put my neck on the line and add my 2p worth here.
You are both right, to a degree (pardon the pun)
Jongould is right in as much as the ratio between the pully's will always remain constant regardless of the length of belt.
However, Diesel Do is also right in that, if the belt is fractionally longer or shorter and the teeth of the belt are even slightly over or under sized/spaced, the relationship between the crank and the pump will be out and therefore the timing will be out. Although they will both still rotate at the 2:1 ratio.
Anyway...
When I changed my belt I found that a 9/16 AF bolt (suspension bolt from a Hillman Avenger ) was the correct 9.5mm diameter (or whatever the size is) to use as a locking pin for the pump. I just cut the threaded portion off. And as long as you make sure the crank is at TDC and doesn't move it should be fine.
The bigest pain was finding a torque wrench with a dial gauge to set the tension. Unless someone knows a better way to set this?

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Agree completely. Cos the adjustment is on one side only any manufacturing tolerance puts the timing out slightly!
To a degree

Out with the tip ex then?

PTK said:

Going to put my neck on the line and add my 2p worth here.
You are both right, to a degree (pardon the pun)
Jongould is right in as much as the ratio between the pully's will always remain constant regardless of the length of belt.
However, Diesel Do is also right in that, if the belt is fractionally longer or shorter and the teeth of the belt are even slightly over or under sized/spaced, the relationship between the crank and the pump will be out and therefore the timing will be out. Although they will both still rotate at the 2:1 ratio.

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Agreed there, but as I said if you work to the marks (making sure they all align) you would be spot on, thats what im trying to get at here, a timing kit does nothing more than lock the engine into a preset position, you can do it without locking if you ensure the timing is set to the original manufacturers marks, basically what you would do if you had to change the injection pump or had a belt snap...

PTK said:

Anyway...
When I changed my belt I found that a 9/16 AF bolt (suspension bolt from a Hillman Avenger ) was the correct 9.5mm diameter (or whatever the size is) to use as a locking pin for the pump. I just cut the threaded portion off. And as long as you make sure the crank is at TDC and doesn't move it should be fine.
The bigest pain was finding a torque wrench with a dial gauge to set the tension. Unless someone knows a better way to set this?

Click to expand...

Thats prob the easiest way, the crank will be at TDC if the pump is in locked position, it takes a bit to move it i.e. you cant just lightly knock it like you could with the pump. If you mark up all the pulleys beforehand it can add a visual aid to see if anything has moved...

Well I personally check and adjust the timing every time I do one. It takes no longer That way it will run as its meant to. Admittedly you'd be unlucky if the belts were that different it caused a significant problem. But it can happen. My theory is if it's right there's no come back.
A lot of more modern engines don't even have timing marks because they aren't precise enough. Ive seen too many with poor starting, lumpy idle, white smoke because of belt changes! You can tell because of the tipex. They end up in main dealers often costing a fortune because the owner doesn't know what to do! But yes it is only a small minority of unlucky ones!
Well that's my opinion for what it's worth.
If you hadn't guessed I'm a mechanic too! I'm not a land rover guru. But I'm used to far more complex engines!