Bio Diesel is Bollocks

pos said:

I had been running 100% bio diesel, and the filter was ****part. I've now got an FRM filter.

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Thats too much for a 2.5N/A. The lucas IP won't cope with it, cut it with about 40% DERV.

Alright thanks for the advice!

discomania said:

Thats too much for a 2.5N/A. The lucas IP won't cope with it, cut it with about 40% DERV.

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Err... why?

Bio has almost exactly the same viscosity as DERV and better lubricity. If he was talking about SVO or WVO then sure.

DERV to EN590 has a viscosity of between 2.0 and 4.5 at 40°C
Bio has a viscosity of between 1.9 and 6.0 at 40°C
SVO (typical) has a viscocity in excess of 35.8 at 40°C

DTZ said:

Err... why?

Bio has almost exactly the same viscosity as DERV and better lubricity. If he was talking about SVO or WVO then sure.

DERV to EN590 has a viscosity of between 2.0 and 4.5 at 40°C
Bio has a viscosity of between 1.9 and 6.0 at 40°C
SVO (typical) has a viscocity in excess of 35.8 at 40°C

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Aye but it's the glycerin that's supposed to be taken out which will eventually do the damage. If I dilute it, there's less glycerin build up which will prevent damage to my injection pump in the long run.

I never had any problem running on SVO with a little bit of diesel mind.

There's a hell of a lot more glycerin in SVO mixed with DERV than in Bio... Making bio is, essentially, removing the glycerides from the fatty acids in oil. Even if you've got crap bio where they've only removed 75% of the glycerides, that's still 50% less than in a 50-50 mix of SVO and DERV.

DTZ said:

Err... why?

Bio has almost exactly the same viscosity as DERV and better lubricity. If he was talking about SVO or WVO then sure.

DERV to EN590 has a viscosity of between 2.0 and 4.5 at 40°C
Bio has a viscosity of between 1.9 and 6.0 at 40°C
SVO (typical) has a viscocity in excess of 35.8 at 40°C

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Its eats the seals in these pumps, it has almost nout to do with the viscosity of bio diesel and more to do with the chemical composition of. However before I continue, the viscosity of 100% bio in the cold is NOT suitable for a Lucas cav as they have a VERY sensitive hydraulic control and it will affect the timing advance feature.

The seals on these pumps can fail at the best of times and the bio diesel at that ratio will really help eat them up. I had a tank of bio diesel, on it I had an oil tap - the bio ate the washer within about 5 months - now the seals in the pump will be better than this - but by how much?

I am not saying it won't work; I am just making a comment to help people who may be running their LUCAS CAV injected engines on this stuff long term.

discomania said:

Its eats the seals in these pumps, it has almost nout to do with the viscosity of bio diesel and more to do with the chemical composition of. However before I continue, the viscosity of 100% bio in the cold is NOT suitable for a Lucas cav as they have a VERY sensitive hydraulic control and it will affect the timing advance feature.

The seals on these pumps can fail at the best of times and the bio diesel at that ratio will really help eat them up. I had a tank of bio diesel, on it I had an oil tap - the bio ate the washer within about 5 months - now the seals in the pump will be better than this - but by how much?

I am not saying it won't work; I am just making a comment to help people who may be running their LUCAS CAV injected engines on this stuff long term.

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Right... now we're getting somewhere - thanks Discomania. So if the seals in the pump are changed for nitrile rubber ones instead of natural rubber all should be well apart from at temperatures where bio will begin to gel?

I've been using SVO mixes for many years in citroen and peugeot (XUD turbo engines) with great results - my results from over the years are published on one or two web sites and I've been a proponent of bio fuels from well before it was (semi) mainstream. We are now well past the 100,000 mile mark driving our vehicles on veg oil blend. So when I got the chance of a regular supply of real bio diesel from a supplier not far from me - cheaper by the 50 gall drum, I bought one. ..... It brought the Peugeot, Citroen and 110 to a halt in 1 week! Now at times the Cit and Pug have been on 90% svo in the summer months (XUD engines have heated fuel filters, which helps too) with no problems, yet bio brought both to a halt in 2 and 3 days. It brought the 110 to a halt in middle of a bloody motorway in the dark and rain with my wife on her own in it! - Awful potential!

Filter changes did get them all going again, but I daren't use bio any more. Perhaps bio blend would be better, but that seems to defeat the point really.

A mate has an 06 plate Navarra that he's been running on B100 from a local source all year... nothing wrong with it thus far. Sounds to me like you did the hard work (changed the filters) then gave up or the bio you sourced wasn't really bio.

DTZ said:

Right... now we're getting somewhere - thanks Discomania. So if the seals in the pump are changed for nitrile rubber ones instead of natural rubber all should be well apart from at temperatures where bio will begin to gel?

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CORRECT. Then preheating for the winter and you would actually be OK.

very interesting thread......

it does sound like the quality of the fuel is once again the problem (not the type of fuel, if you know what I mean).

I found out the other week that the new 2007 Def runs on Bio (roughley 70% Bio), unfortunately this was only a short term test (200-300 miles), I'd be interested to know if anyone has any longer term experience of the 2007 model Defender on Bio ?


cheers,

Weymouth is part of the Isle of Purbeck, isn't it?

Weymouth is a little town and ferry port a bit further west than Portsmouth as far as I was concerned.

Bio diesel quality varies greatly , I now only buy from one local supplier, as I have had problems when bought from several other sources when travelling . with that particular fuel I have been running perkins prima, 200 tdi, 300tdi, LDV (pug engine) , for lots of miles no prob . The standard seems to suffer when tech standards are let slip due to meeting demand , in many cases.

should have mentioned before, my Citreon Picasso 1.6HDI 110PS (I believe its common rail, pretty much the same engine as found in the Ford Focus) has now done circa 2000 miles on B100 (home brew) with no problems.....
I hope I still make it home tonight now I've said that.

And the wife's Pug 206 1.4HDI has done about 1000miles on same stuff and no problem other than very strange thing on starting. Starts fine although runs a tiny bit slow and sometimes the accelerator does absolutely nothing for the first 5-10 seconds and then absolutely fine after that

pos said:

Hello,

I've been running my 1986 90 (2.5 N/A) on genuine bio-diesel (made from used vegetable oil) sourced from a bio-diesel company in Bradford for the last couple of months and even though this stuff is supposedly processed to a universal standard in order to remove the glycerine which actually clogs up your engine, I have found the complete opposite. Last week I drove from Leeds to Weymouth, spent a week on the island and then drove back up to Leeds this Wednesday and have found my fuel filter innards literally disintegrated. The plastic like adhesive that holds the paper filter material into the inside of the filter canister has turned into a floppy, flakey rubber like substance and the filter paper its self has turned into a mush clogged with brown gel and dark mould like patches where it obviously hasn't been totally saturated in fuel.

What a load of bollocks. I've got a bottle of redex and half a litre of white spirit in my new tank now (which was only fitted about 6 months ago) so there's no excuse for the bio diesel supposedly cleaning my fuel system. It's brand new with no **** to budge full stop.

I'm not going there again, even straight vegetable oil didn't clog up my filters like this stuff has. What's going on!?

-Pos

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It's the acids in the bio diesel, veg oil etc that eats the adhesive

Some manufacturers of filter make them with special edhesives which are resistant to these acids, ****part wont do though, i'm sure.

pussyeater said:

It's the acids in the bio diesel, veg oil etc that eats the adhesive

Some manufacturers of filter make them with special edhesives which are resistant to these acids, ****part wont do though, i'm sure.

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No, its the methanol. These acids you speak of, are fatty acids not like the acids you commonly think of when acid is mentioned.

discomania said:

No, its the methanol. These acids you speak of, are fatty acids not like the acids you commonly think of when acid is mentioned.

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a bit of a copy and paste job coming up here chaps

sorry

hopefully it helps


What is biodiesel?
Biodiesel is a renewable fuel for diesel engines. Biodiesel, defined by ASTM International D6751 consists of long-chain fatty acid alkyl esters and is made from renewable vegetable oils, recycled cooking oils, or animal fats. It can be used at full strength, but is typically blended with petroleum diesel. A blend of 2% biodiesel and 98% diesel is referred to as B2. Other typical blends include B5, B10, and B20; pure biodiesel is sometimes referred to as B100.

Why should I consider using biodiesel?
Biodiesel is a renewable, biodegradable, cleaner burning alternative to petroleum fuels. It has a slightly higher cetane rating which can promote easier cold starting and lower idle noise. With tax incentives and rising petroleum prices, biodiesel is becoming more economically competitive.</SPAN>


Is all biodiesel the same?
Because biodiesel can be made from a number of different raw materials and with a number of different processes, there can be some subtle variations in chemical and physical properties. ASTM has established standards for testing diesel fuels to insure some uniformity in performance. In most applications, if the biodiesel conforms to ASTM standards it can be used in the same equipment as other diesel fuels. Verify with your supplier that the biodiesel conforms to ASTM standards.</SPAN>


Will I have to modify anything mechanically in my engine to use biodiesel?
Not if you are using blends of B20 or less. The specifications for biodiesel have been established so that it can be used in any diesel engine. Some modifications may be desirable with higher biodiesel concentrations. Consult your equipment manufacturer before using higher biodiesel blends.</SPAN>


Will biodiesel hurt the mechanical parts of my engine?

No. In fact biodiesel can be good for an engine for two reasons. First, biodiesel has more lubricating properties than petroleum diesel. Loss of lubricity is one of the drawbacks of newer low sulphur diesel fuels. Adding just 1% biodiesel increases the lubricity to an acceptable level, so any biodiesel blend will have the required lubricity without sulfur or other additives. The second advantage is that biodiesel will actually help clean the fuel system. Because it is a good solvent, it can remove deposits and buildup from tanks, lines, pumps and other fuel system components. Be aware, though, that since it is such a good solvent, it has the potential to damage certain paints and finishes, so always clean up spills immediately.

Will biodiesel hurt seals and other components?
Biodiesel blends higher than B20 can cause problems with natural rubber engine components, such as seals and hoses. Biodiesel will degrade rubber, so any seals or hoses in the fuel system that are made of rubber will be susceptible to damage. Biodiesel blends of B20 or below should not cause problems with rubber components, but users should periodically check rubber components when using any biodiesel blend to make sure they are not degrading or getting hard. As the use of biodiesel increases, most equipment manufacturers are increasing the use Viton-based materials in seals and hoses. Viton is a synthetic rubber substitute that will not be damaged by biodiesel.

Some manufacturers do caution users about potential problems with the lubricating oil in an engine. If biodiesel gets mixed with the lubricating oil, it can react with the oils to create “sludge” that might accumulate in the sump or in oil passages. Check manufacturer recommendations about oil change frequency as some suggest changing oil more often when using biodiesel.</SPAN>


Will biodiesel cause fuel filter problems?
The most common fuel filter problems occur when switching older machinery from petroleum diesel to biodiesel. Petroleum diesel has a tendency to leave paraffin-based buildup on the insides of tanks and other fuel system components. Biodiesel will loosen this buildup, which will be trapped in the fuel filter. Users can expect to replace fuel filters several times after switching older equipment to biodiesel. After the fuel system gets cleaned out, filter usage should return to normal.

Another less common cause of filter problems comes from the use of higher biodiesel blends that have been stored for extended periods of time. Biodiesel will degrade with age (see storage question below), producing some gums and sediments, which can cause filter plugging.</SPAN>


Will I get as much power from my engine with biodiesel?
Pure biodiesel contains 5-8% less energy per gallon than petroleum diesel. Blended fuels obviously will have less of an energy loss. Some literature does indicate that other factors such as more efficient burning and better injection efficiency due to higher viscosities may counteract this energy loss. In any event, users might notice a slight power loss with biodiesel fuels.</SPAN>


Will I void the manufacturer’s warranty if I use biodiesel?
Warranties vary significantly from manufacturer to manufacturer, but most will not categorically void a warranty if you use biodiesel. However, most warranties will not cover damage that was caused by the fuel (be it biodiesel or any other fuel) because those damages were not caused by a defect in the machine. For instance, if you damage a diesel engine by accidentally putting gasoline in the tank, the manufacturer probably will not repair the engine under warranty. Therefore, it may be more difficult to get warranty coverage for problems that may have been caused by biodiesel. Furthermore, many manufacturers are reluctant to recommend use of blends higher than B5 in engines. Check carefully with the individual manufacturer to verify what is covered and/or recommended.</SPAN>


Can I use biodiesel in cold weather?
Pure biodiesel is more susceptible to cold temperature problems than petroleum diesel, but when blended, this effect is moderated. A B2 biodiesel blend, for example, has the same cold flow properties as petroleum-based diesel. However, B20 will have a higher gel point, from 3 to 5 °F higher. The bottom line is that as with petroleum diesel, you will need to use a kerosene blend or other anti-gelling additive in colder temperatures. Consult your fuel supplier to make sure you will be protected in your climate.</SPAN>


Is biodiesel more susceptible to water contamination?
Biodiesel is more susceptible to water contamination than petroleum diesel. The presence of water in biodiesel or any fuel can promote corrosion of fuel system components and growth of microorganisms. The following are some common sense techniques useful for preventing water contamination in any fuel system.</SPAN>

• <LI type=square>Make sure all tank caps are in place and in good condition.
  <LI type=square>Store machinery with tanks full to minimize condensation inside the tank. Get in the habit of filling the tanks at the end of the day so there is no room for condensation to form when the temperatures cools overnight.
  <LI type=square>Large temperature swings can promote moisture condensation on the inside of storage tanks. Underground storage tanks are best at preventing condensation since fuel is kept at a relatively constant temperature, but underground storage introduces many other potential problems such as leakage and liability. Above ground storage tanks should be insulated (double wall) and shaded if possible to moderate temperature swings thereby reducing the possibility of condensation formation.
  <LI type=square>Drain a small amount of fuel from the bottom of storage tanks every 6 months to remove any water that might have accumulated in the tank.
  <LI type=square>Avoid prolonged exposure of fuel to light, which can induce algae growth. Fiberglass tanks should be painted and/or placed in shaded areas.
• If biological growth is a problem, the same products that are used with petroleum diesel can be used in biodiesel to “dry” the fuel and clean up biological contaminants.

How long can I store biodiesel?
Fuel aging and oxidation can lead to heightened acid content, high viscosity and the formation of gums and sediments that clog filters. It is recommended that biodiesel be stored for no more than six months without an anti-oxidant additive.</SPAN>


Will biodiesel totally replace diesel someday?
There are no specific efforts at this point to make biodiesel a requirement. Because it is a cleaner burning, renewable fuel source, though, availability and usage will continue to increase.</SPAN>


Where can I get even more information about what biodiesel is and the benefits of using biodiesel? A companion publication to this one (AEN-89) gives more detail about what biodiesel is, how it is made, and some of the advantages and disadvantages of the fuel. There is also a tremendous amount of information available online through organizations such as the National Biodiesel Board, the United States Department of Energy, or the National Renewable Energy Lab.</SPAN>

I was doing some work on the use of biodiesel ten or eleven years ago when it first began to make a commercial appearance,
I was working on in-tank electric fuel pumps, blow-moulded plastic fuel tanks and other bits of the fuel supply system.

The fuel in question at the time was RME (Rape Methyl Ester).

What we found at the time:
- If you have nitrile rubber seals in injection pumps, lift pumps, fuel unions, etc., the RME will degrade them over time and they will leak or will have to be replaced if disturbed. Viton seals are the only properly resistant type. Drawback with Vitons are that they get harder at low temperatures than nitrile does.

- If you have a plastic fuel tank, you can get blistering of the tank if the fuel in the tank runs at high-ish temperatures - you might be surprised at how how fuel in the tank can get at high ambient temperatures and moderate to high engine load. This may not be a problem but it's worth knowing.

- The earlier refernce to the potential growth of 'micro-organisms' is quite a risk if you don't use the vehicle regularly. I beleive that the bacteria that can grow in the bio-d excrete formic acid (perhaps a chemist can verify that?)

pussyeater said:

a bit of a copy and paste job coming up here chaps

sorry

hopefully it helps

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Is there something I should be looking at re. the fatty acids or is that just a gen Bio Diesel information post?