5th gear, to tow or not to tow, that is the question!

Hi, I'm after some impartial advice.

I've used the search function and have found conflicting advice on towing with a Defender. I have an old (Heavy) double axle Avondale caravan, I tow it down to Devon at Easter each year 240 miles in one hit (been using my Amazon 4.2 for the last 5 years).

I've swapped the Amazon for a Defender 2004 110 TD5, now I realise it will feel a little underpowered but I've read that I should avoid using 5th gear unless I want it stripped!

Is this true

While awaiting answers from the forum I stumbled across this website which seems to provide all the info needed.

TowCar.info - All about Tow Cars and Towing Caravans

Now I'm just after some confirmation that I can leave it in 5th at 60mph for the length of the M5 without worrying about gearbox overheating etc?

It's a bit of an odd theory " that you will strip the gears in 5th if you are towing".
Many cars have six gears - do you miss out 5th and go for 6th???

I've never come across this sort of advice before.

What you can find is that when towing, top gear ( 4th, 5th or 6th depending on the car) can be very much an "overdrive" gear designed for low engine revs at motorway speeds.

You can end up flogging the car to keep at 60 in top gear, when it's kinder to the engine and gearbox to drop a gear, and use less throttle.
This is particularly the case with turbocharged diesels that can develop a lot of torque low down in the rev range.

A good guide, if you think you are flogging the engine like this, is to drop down a gear, and see if your speed holds steady with less throttle, if you can use less throttle to hold your speed, then you are better off in this gear.

On my old Sierra, top gear was a bit too tall to tow the caravan - and rarely got used.

But in the case of a defender, they can hardly be described as "tall geared", and are specifically designed to tow heavy weights - if it pulls well enough, and you don't have your foot on the floor to keep your speed up, then carry on in top gear.

Although I've not driven the later defenders with six gears - not sure how "overdrive" they are...

5th gear is an overdrive .77 or something like that if memory serves for the R380 box in the TD5


4th gear is a 1:1 as well so will be a tougher gear I assume


Check the owners manual that should give you details for towing

Yes, 4th will be tougher, because it carries more torque than 5th.
But 3rd is tougher than 4th etc.

But landies are made to do this sort of stuff.
Top speed is 90 mph ish, so 60 mph is 2/3rds top speed, and the engine will be pulling probably 2000 rpm , which is perfect for towing.

Many euro boxes have 120 mph plus top speed, so at 60 simply aren't pulling enough revs ( less than 1500 in top at 60 mph).

Thanks for the advice, I didn't think I'd have a problem towing and I'm always 'sympathetic' with regard to finding the right speed and gearing, I know from my first time around in Defenders that they find their own comfortable speed.

There is nothing in the owners manual about avoiding 5th, I can't find the thread where someone was saying that 5th should be avoided and to be honest it didn't make sense to me as the torque suffered goes down as the gears go up. It's just that last time I had a defender I didn't do any towing, now with a young family and a busy fencing company I do a lot of towing and I was concerned that maybe sustained high speed towing may cause an overheating of the transmission.

Fuel consumption was getting silly on my Amazon (18mpg) and in order to get the best of both worlds I sold that and bought the Defender for the family and towing and a nice sensible diesel Audi for everyday.

I'll head to with the Caravan at the weekend and give it a 30mins trial on the Motorway.

you plan on getting better mpg in a defender ? good luck with that

chilipepper said:

While awaiting answers from the forum I stumbled across this website which seems to provide all the info needed.

TowCar.info - All about Tow Cars and Towing Caravans

Now I'm just after some confirmation that I can leave it in 5th at 60mph for the length of the M5 without worrying about gearbox overheating etc?

Click to expand...

It will as well as engine. 5th is for vehicle only, It is a over drive/economy gear. Use 4th and keep it there. Got over 1.5 million miles driven in pickups to 80,000lb lorrys full loaded. We got 13 gears in most with 3 listed as over drive. and most times when full loaded seldom able to use 1 or 2 gears unless on flat ground and a tail wind. Empty piece of cake and you can skip a gear when shifting, but not loaded

From experience on td5's, the engine isn't long legged in 5th, and pulls very cleanly from about 45 mph in this top gear.

See how it goes, but I'd be surprised if you didn't have to downshift to. 4th a few times...

There is no specific problem in 5th.

Might be worth asking someone who rebuilds these boxes, like Dave at Ashcroft transmissions. He is very helpful,

Dr Evil - I thought i'd be up and down the gearbox more! I can live with the defender mileage (24mpg at the moment not sparing the horse's) but now only about 10k of my annual mileage of 40k will be in the defender, the rest will be in the A6 (38mpg even at a 'generous' cursing speed

Captain - Thank you do you have Dave's contact details?

Thor - Thanks for your input, while I accept what your saying I'm looking for specific defender towing issues, 4th is very short for the motorway. When I'm traveling to Devon i'm mainly on the flat and I won't be using more that 2/3'rds throttle, I'll shift down if I need more.

Best contact him through the Ashcroft transmission website.

[email protected]

thanks Captain

captainbeaky said:

Yes, 4th will be tougher, because it carries more torque than 5th.
But 3rd is tougher than 4th etc.

But landies are made to do this sort of stuff.
Top speed is 90 mph ish, so 60 mph is 2/3rds top speed, and the engine will be pulling probably 2000 rpm , which is perfect for towing.

Many euro boxes have 120 mph plus top speed, so at 60 simply aren't pulling enough revs ( less than 1500 in top at 60 mph).

Click to expand...

Not necessarily. 4th gear in the R380 is pretty much a direct drive, it doesn't put on any forces any gears other than just torsional loading on the mainshaft.

When in any other gear, it's driving gears on the layshaft so putting lateral forces on the bearings, gear teeth etc so in terms of drive-train strength, 4th is the strongest. Your also reducing as much transmission losses as you can by using 4th too but that's really splitting hairs


I do most of my towing in 4th as I have a 1.2 transfer box and 33" tyres so I can sit at 50-60mph in 4th when towing on the motorway no problem at all with a heavy load no matter what hills I come against. It can be ever so slightly out of it's powerband when in 5th if towing heavy loads especially if you have a standard turbo.


Still does 25-27mpg while towing too so not bad fuel economy at all given what it is

chilipepper said:

Hi, I'm after some impartial advice.

I've used the search function and have found conflicting advice on towing with a Defender. I have an old (Heavy) double axle Avondale caravan, I tow it down to Devon at Easter each year 240 miles in one hit (been using my Amazon 4.2 for the last 5 years).

I've swapped the Amazon for a Defender 2004 110 TD5, now I realise it will feel a little underpowered but I've read that I should avoid using 5th gear unless I want it stripped!

Is this true

Click to expand...

no 5th is fine if it pulls it ok ,its not a weak box but like regular oil changes

jamesmartin said:

no 5th is fine if it pulls it ok ,its not a weak box but like regular oil changes

Click to expand...

+1

Gearbox, transfer box, axle and swivel oil changes are often neglected at service.

After talking to Dave Ashcroft he told me that

"one of the common failure modes of the R380 is premature wear of one or both of the rear support bearings in the rear 5th speed aluminium housing, this starts as a whirring in all gears but not so bad in 4th, then as the bearings wear it allows the 5th gear on the layshaft and 5th gear on the mainshaft to come a little out of mesh, then 5th also gets noisy and often results in the teeth coming of one or both of the 5th gears, after much design work we are now able to offer to upgrade these two bearings"

The failure can happen within 12 months of very hard use!!

I shall be changing all fluids regularly and be keeping an ear out

chilipepper said:

After talking to Dave Ashcroft he told me that

"one of the common failure modes of the R380 is premature wear of one or both of the rear support bearings in the rear 5th speed aluminium housing, this starts as a whirring in all gears but not so bad in 4th, then as the bearings wear it allows the 5th gear on the layshaft and 5th gear on the mainshaft to come a little out of mesh, then 5th also gets noisy and often results in the teeth coming of one or both of the 5th gears, after much design work we are now able to offer to upgrade these two bearings"

The failure can happen within 12 months of very hard use!!

I shall be changing all fluids regularly and be keeping an ear out

Click to expand...

not entirely true the rear support bearings can wear but not by any means more common than the others often far better condition,teeth dont come a little out of mesh its just that 5th gear is nearest to rear so weight is put on those bearings in 5th so you get bearing whine if bearings are worn usually through poor servicing

There was problems with several Japanese makes towing in 5th gear , one even suggested in the owners handbook not towing heavy loads in 5th " to keep better control of the load" !! The defender with 5 speed didn't ever suffer from this problem . I would however suggest that you use a top quality full synthetic eg Redline .
Problems usually arise when using behind a modded engine , that puts out more power .
I used a 300tdi 130 DC HCPU for a lot of towing upto 7450KG train weight , and the gearbox was still fine at 250,000kms , and that was in the heat of australia , HTSH

My main and layshaft bearings threw in the towel 4 or 5 months after I got the Defender and about a year and a half after the gearbox was reconditioned by previous owner (how well it was rebuilt is another question however)

I fitted another gearbox to keep it going so must rebuild the one that came out now soon as the one that's in it is rattling but unsure as to get the bits myself and do it or just get a recon Ashcroft box with the uprated bearings as they won't sell the bearings to me on their own.

DaveM-sport said:

My main and layshaft bearings threw in the towel 4 or 5 months after I got the Defender and about a year and a half after the gearbox was reconditioned by previous owner (how well it was rebuilt is another question however)

Must rebuild the gearbox now soon but unsure as to get the bits myself and do it or just get a recon Ashcroft box with the uprated bearings as they won't sell the bearings to me on their own.

Click to expand...

if r380 get a new trans cooler from them, will save your trans from future destruction