Mogwyth
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Yep and the same applies to the professionals too and I have seen some pretty poor examples in my time in the NHS.
4x4 rescue
- Thread starter ned25
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Yep and the same applies to the professionals too and I have seen some pretty poor examples in my time in the NHS.
Bigging it up, at no point have you pointed out you are community volunteers and the use of police boundaries infers you have legal mandate.We are a registered charity providing 4x4 Response support within the areas covered by Avon & Somerset, Dorset and Wiltshire Police.
We are registered members of 4x4 Response Network the national umbrella organisation which supports 4x4 response teams throughout the UK.
Other teams nationwide can be contacted via the National 4x4 Response website.
What is a 4x4 Response team? Teams of volunteers prepared to use their own vehicles and give up their time exist throughout the country to provide logistic assistance to Category one and two responders; as defined in the Civil Contingencies Act; and other Voluntary agencies. Normally via the Local Resilllience forums
Examples of our support can be seen on our attendances page. We have agreements with various user bodies in all our counties and Government Office South West varying from formal MOUs to 'per occasion' agreements.
We can be called by any statutory or voluntary agency (click the callout link for more information), but not by the general public who should call the appropriate Emergency Service.
Cotag site is straight and to the point, your page over emphasises police/government and fails spectacularly to point out community volunteer and will actively attract the hiz knights.
Skynet
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Just realised the thread title is wrong.... its not a rescue service! At Least I'm not!!! I 'respond' with my 4x4 vehicle to assist where required.... blimey thats a 4x4 response unless I'm mistaken. 
I'm very happy to be a 4x4 taxi service taking people where only a 4x4 can get to.... no flashy lights either thank you very much!
Ok so I gave a tug to an ambulance till he gained grip and used a spade in the snow for a response car.
I'm not an ambulance, nor cop car or recovery vehicle....I know my limits and respect my car too much to abuse it that way!
I'm very happy to be a 4x4 taxi service taking people where only a 4x4 can get to.... no flashy lights either thank you very much!
Ok so I gave a tug to an ambulance till he gained grip and used a spade in the snow for a response car.
I'm not an ambulance, nor cop car or recovery vehicle....I know my limits and respect my car too much to abuse it that way!
Mogwyth
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I think that says it all:
What is a 4x4 Response team? Teams of volunteers prepared to use their own vehicles and give up their time exist throughout the country to provide logistic assistance.
you've used one word that makes a lot of difference - professionals
they are likely to have had many YEARS of training, will have a professional audit and training process in place and will be highly qualified - everyone makes mistakes
my argument is that the growing trend of ad hoc response groups is breeding some degree of trust and dependence in those groups which is by and large totally misplaced and based on an ignorant view of such groups training and capabilities
there must be some very good people in these groups, but as i said you are only as strong as your weakest member
ned25
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:focus::focus::focus::focus:
as above anyone a member.... 4x4 Response Network Welcome
as above anyone a member.... 4x4 Response Network Welcome
Mogwyth
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Professional can be incompetent or work above their training, we have a consultant who is under going retraining for operating out side his area of competency at the moment and yes he did put lives in danger and no I don't where he is being allowed to retrain rather than be struck of..
I would be interested to know what qualifies you to make such a generalistic statement about all such groups.
nathan5346
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u reckon its a lucky guess?
simply because i have attended many many incidents where such groups fail to keep to their stated scope, have contributed nothing with their presence and often detrimentally affect legitimate emergency services ability to quickly get to work
and until i see the quality of the service provided by these groups improve i cannot have anything other than a very dim view of them
We don't agree on much, but on this statement I agree.
Helping serve the community is very public spirited, Interfering beyond remit is without a doubt going to go badly wrong-if asked for assistance by a professional then fine.
i think you have proven there that ****ing stupidity is prevalent wherever you look. that is utter madness, especially example one. however sadly there are numpties wherever you look. i have seen some very ****ing stupid coppers, i mean seriously lacking in common sense type people, which is truly worrying. but they are everywhere, absolutely wherever you look. And that isnt and shouldnt be anything like what response groups are meant to act like
for those of you that dont really know how these things work here is a little oversimplification, but maybe it will help.
my group, bux oxon 4x4 reponse, of which i have been a member for a number of months, provides support in bucks and oxfordshire, as per the name. our group has a response coordinator. he liases direct with both county council emergency planning committees, and direct with emergency and council services. if or when a 4x4 is required he then notifies a responder who is close and has suitable experience and vehicle who then responds. this can be for the police, fire service, ambulance service, it oculd be for district nurses, for handing out meals on wheels, logistical transport for any number of government services, patient transport for hospitals, pretty much you name it.
it isnt just a case of ooh look the ****s hitting the fan, so all 4x4 repsonse guys drive down to the local nick, fire station, hospital or whatever, and offer their services. it is structured, individuals are deployed depending on the capabilities they offer.
some groups clearly love the sticker side, i know at broxhead there was a resonse guy in a disco 2 who, having watched my 110 drive into a huge mud hole, struggle and then reverse, decided his disco 2 with rear tow hitch, no front recovery point and road tyres, would make it. his vehicle had the lights, the decals, a really ornate side decal on the window, and rear markings. he was truly a tit.
but it really doesnt account for all of us. my landy as some of you know is scratched up, used off road and laning, the only thing on it thats anything like that is a new main reason they are there is because i have an earthing problem in my left side indicators, i have looked for the problem, as have kris and mark, and they cant find it. that means my indicators go quite sporadically, and sometimes i am without a left side indicator. if i am on the side of the road, hard shoulder of whatever, be it because i have a problem, or a friend of mine or whatever has an issue, it becomes dangerous because my hazards look like i am indicating right. the hazards do now come in handy when i am recovering vehicles in the snow, and once or twice in the response aspect also (eg blocking a road with a police officer, attending sparking overhead power cables, recovering ambulance)
but with the amber beacons off my landy looks just like any other off roader really.
i have to say though, despite what you say it isnt just transport. we do other stuff if they ask us to, mainly drink tea in the nick recently it must be said
alot of it is transport, coppers, paramedics and often carers and district nurses, but there are a few more aspectsit seems there are a few groups out that are a little gung ho, trying to be coppers, and generally liking authority, but theyarent all like that. my lot are a good bunch, some real nice vehicles, easy to get on with and generally nice peple to spend time with, and im sure there are lots of others like that as well.
i agree, but i still think your statements are a little sweeping. yea some are like that, but not all response groups are prats that merely hinder the work of the blue light services
i only know people in my group, and a few in herts, and having seen these guys i know they are providing a top service. if you like come down, you can spend a day with us, see what we do. i think you will find most of us are pretty down to earth people. the cops (recently it has been the cops that have been asking our assistance most) are grateful, and generally we have quite a laugh while we do it. the most serious incidents i have done were monitoring a sparking overhead power cable, and recovering an ambulance on a cardiac call. but they are out of the ordinary. in this snow i have spent alot of time transporting carers to patients, and coppers to wherever they need to go, helping with the incidents they are going to wherever possible. its a passive roll really. if you come along your view might just be changed, coz none of us that i have met are overly gung ho, most of us dont have vehicles plastered with important looking decals and signs, and i dont think any of us ( i wont speak for myself here, i dont think i am, but others may disagree) are particularly arrogant, stuck up, ignorant, or believe themselves to be of greater importance than they actually are.
i applaude the fact that your groups appears well run - logistical transport is exactly what these groups sh ould be brilliant at, but much beyond that the degree of training required is much more than having the ability to drive in conditions normal vehicles struggle in
it's a shame there isn't a properly run, professionally monitored national organization, with a recognized required level of competency to make better use of this resource - at the moment generally it's a shambles
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the problem being, having now seen numerous events which have given rise to real doubt as to these groups ability - how do you get the trust back without first being able to prove that there is a well structured, audited and professionally assessed training program in place that they will have to have gone through before they get to wear one of those prized hi viz's
i wouldn't let a copper isolate a battery let alone an apparent bystander with "response" printed on a hi viz
to be fair, high vis means nothing. you can buy them from halfords, or b&q
most people havent a clue we exist, or who we are. they base their impressions on when they first ocme into contact with us. sadly that means it can swing both ways. clearly there are members that give rise to a groups ability, but i have seen coppers which do the same, but you cant question the police forces credibility based on a number fo isolated incidents.
I agree with you to a certain extent, but what this should be in my opinion isnt another st johns ambulance, this should be a group of like minded 4x4 drivers that want to offer assistance in times where hteir vehicles could be of use. i wouldnt be interested if it involved a lengthy training program, and what not, in fact i think it rather defies the point. if it comes to that why not just get special constables and coppers to take these things, and then get them to work in military vehicles (they arent all wolf land rovers, clearly military. the raf and army have many station wagons and hard tops in "belize green" mainly but other colours so it has nothing to do with not wanting the military image)
there shouldnt be a situation where a 4x4 responder is sent out to a RTA by himself, and then sorts it out. the idea is to work in tandem with the blue light services, and not replace them. we have vehicles that are more capable than many the blue lighter have, therefore we can help. simple as that. no huge vetting process, if people wanted to do something to that level join the bloody special constable police volunteers, all we want to do is try to offer a helping hand when we can
what is it that meerkat says?
i agree, you'd do yourselves all a favor to maybe setup a visit to your local station (fire and police) and ask if you could give a short presentation outlining exactly what help you could provide - even do as the medical community responders do with us, come along and get involved with the training scenarios that we run which try and simulate actual incidents - that way everyone gets to learn and see what everyone else can and can;t do
unfortunately until we can see how effective such groups can be we just can't trust them - thats not saying we don't want to
interestingly this is a problem we have been trying to address. in the first bout of snow the police didnt have the foggiest who we are or what we do. i was trying to help a mate stuck on marlow hill when a cop asked if i could help, at which point i pointed out i was 4x4 response - i got the reply "what the **** is that"
anyway, spent a fair while helping him, then when he mentioned me on the radio his sgt asked if i would be willing to help transport some kids home from a care station in wycombe. i then spoke to him and explained who i was and who we are, what we do, what we can do and where we can help. he was organising the response to the snow in the area and hadn a clue who we are.
needless to say once i gave him some details he got hold of our chairman, and pretty soon we were called out and stationed at the police station in wycombe. but there was a communicaiton barrier initially, and the police didnt have a clue who we were. that could have easily lead to mistakes, and incorrect placement of the responders. either way it was pretty quickly sorted out, and our capabilities made clear.
the lack of knowledge of the group may go some way to why they are being deployed wrong, if the police dont know, they may assume (they shouldnt, but they may) that we are able to do more, and are trained in areas we arent. mistakes can easily arise that way, and i think that is a big issue that needs to be raised. how can the national response network be properly utilised if those that should be calling them out havent the foggiest who we are and what we do?
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As i see it, you are both (Sean and Carpy) correct. I can see no reason why individuals, or a group of peeps with a parricular ability, in this case, the use of a 4x4 and the knowledge of how to use it, shoudnt want to use it to help others. Enough posts on here about pulling peeps out of ditches and not all mercenary!
The problem arises when those resources are used incorrectly or badly. Not all peeps want or need to go through intensive training. There is room for all "grades" of assistance. As an example, if you were a doctor and saw an accident, we would like you to offer your knowledge and help, but not to attempt brain surgery. In the same way, someone who has no quaifications except a 4x4 has a valid role to play. It needs both an understanding on the part of any user and the responder to understand what those limits are, to make it work properly.
Yes there are opportunities for gung-ho responders and ignorant ( in its widest sense) users to incorrectly use the resources, but that doesnt mean the idea is bad, only the implementation.
We all have knowledge of police who are power mad and nurses who shoudnt be allowed to stick on a plaster - that doesnt mean we shoud scrap the idea of a community police force or the NHS. Just an acknowledgement that neither are perfect and that the system needs to be improved.
Maybe if the two of you tried to understand the possibilities here, you could both promote the use, correctly, of such a resource. That, to me, wouldbe a positive outcome rather than a futile bickering on here.
This is a good resource that, used properly, could be invaluable at the present time. A lot of us would like to help, but dont want to be formally trained in medicare, or even in professional rescue techniques. Others, of course, like reservist firemen and the TA, would like more training. Surely there is room for both.
The problem arises when those resources are used incorrectly or badly. Not all peeps want or need to go through intensive training. There is room for all "grades" of assistance. As an example, if you were a doctor and saw an accident, we would like you to offer your knowledge and help, but not to attempt brain surgery. In the same way, someone who has no quaifications except a 4x4 has a valid role to play. It needs both an understanding on the part of any user and the responder to understand what those limits are, to make it work properly.
Yes there are opportunities for gung-ho responders and ignorant ( in its widest sense) users to incorrectly use the resources, but that doesnt mean the idea is bad, only the implementation.
We all have knowledge of police who are power mad and nurses who shoudnt be allowed to stick on a plaster - that doesnt mean we shoud scrap the idea of a community police force or the NHS. Just an acknowledgement that neither are perfect and that the system needs to be improved.
Maybe if the two of you tried to understand the possibilities here, you could both promote the use, correctly, of such a resource. That, to me, wouldbe a positive outcome rather than a futile bickering on here.
This is a good resource that, used properly, could be invaluable at the present time. A lot of us would like to help, but dont want to be formally trained in medicare, or even in professional rescue techniques. Others, of course, like reservist firemen and the TA, would like more training. Surely there is room for both.
jai_landrover
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the response team also pulls out other members range rover classics out of ditches that they slid into due to bad ice. We can take the **** now we know everyone is ok after all this is LZ!
I think nothing more is going to be achieved on this thread i gave my view and so has many others shall we end it. Its getting tiresome and filling up my inbox!
I think nothing more is going to be achieved on this thread i gave my view and so has many others shall we end it. Its getting tiresome and filling up my inbox!
