300Tdi Injection Pump Refurb Advice

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Al2O3 said:
I've never touched the FIP timing. When I did the engine rebuild I never loosened the FIP on the casing. The timing I set up with a set of bought timing kit pins.




You've explained my twitchyness. :) Not looking for an argument either and all advice/suggestions/experiences are welcomed as they help come to an informed decision. TBH I'm happy with the reconditioned engine and the way it is pulling, but these flat spots in the rev range have caught my attention. I might take it to my local indie, who I have known for years, and ask them to take it out on a test drive. They deal with a few dozen Landies a week and so should be able to tell me how it compares.
Cheers all.
Click to expand...
you did touch the timing if you fitted a cam belt
 
jamesmartin said:
i know but you cant anyhow unlike earlier engines, its all done on the pump pulley slots,,you can advance your timing using drill bits instead of pump pin through the front cover
Click to expand...
Oh I, sorry James. I also never touched the central nut. Which is probably what I should have said before, instead of talking about the FIP in relation to the casing. :oops::rolleyes:
 
jamesmartin said:
no never touch undo that theres no keyway it would require setting up again
Click to expand...
Yes, I remember the very clear instructions I got off you and Saint.V8 at the time. So the timing should be as it was when I took it all apart, yes? I suppose I've never had it checked in terms of the pulley slots. I presume that's what Discomania and yourself are suggesting.
 
Al2O3 said:
I've never touched the FIP timing. When I did the engine rebuild I never loosened the FIP on the casing. The timing I set up with a set of bought timing kit pins.
Click to expand...

Therein may lie your problem, setting the timing by the pins is only the factory standard set, which was just to get it sort of somewhere that should work but by no means optimised at all and from timing all the diesels I have had I can tell you the factory set is rarely that good!

Now you don't do the FIP timing adjustment on these by rotating the pump on the casing. It is a whole lot easier than that, you remove the rubber bung on the front of the timing chest and you will see the timing pump sprocket, you pin it, then loosen the 3 bolts a little then you can rotate the timing sprocket hub independently to the driven part of the sprocket. The pump will move easily, so you can then use smaller or bigger pins (drill bits) as a gauge.

I can't remember where I ended up leaving my timing in relation to where where it was, but for topic of discussion I started with say a 7.5mm drill and took it down to about a 6.5mm or a 6.75mm drill bit, I did this simply to give me reference to my adjustments.

The good thing here is this, if you make a mess of it, you put the locking pin (drill: 11/32) back in and you are back to where you started.
 
Al2O3 said:
Yes, I remember the very clear instructions I got off you and Saint.V8 at the time. So the timing should be as it was when I took it all apart, yes? I suppose I've never had it checked in terms of the pulley slots. I presume that's what Discomania and yourself are suggesting.
Click to expand...

Yes but still don't undo the central nut. See my post above.
 
discomania said:
Therein may lie your problem, setting the timing by the pins is only the factory standard set, which was just to get it sort of somewhere that should work but by no means optimised at all and from timing all the diesels I have had I can tell you the factory set is rarely that good!

Now you don't do the FIP timing adjustment on these by rotating the pump on the casing. It is a whole lot easier than that, you remove the rubber bung on the front of the timing chest and you will see the timing pump sprocket, you pin it, then loosen the 3 bolts a little then you can rotate the timing sprocket hub independently to the driven sprocket. The pump will move easily, so you can then use smaller or bigger pins (drill bits) as a gauge.

I can't remember where I ended up leaving my timing in relation to where where it was, but for topic of discussion I started with say a 7.5mm drill and took it down to about a 6.5mm or a 6.75mm drill bit, I did this simply to give me reference to my adjustments.

The good thing here is this, if you make a mess of it, you put the locking pin (drill: 11/32) back in and you are back to where you started.
Click to expand...

But is it better to do what you suggest above or set the pump using a Dial indicator on the rear of the pump to measure the stroke and set the timing that way?

Cheers
 
neilly said:
But is it better to do what you suggest above or set the pump using a Dial indicator on the rear of the pump to measure the stroke and set the timing that way?

Cheers
Click to expand...

In practical & theoretical terms I would say yes. Now as someone who has suggested a highly accurate method of setting the relationship of the sprocket to the pump hub I ask you to bear with me on this and hear me out.

The method of using pins and tweaking the hub/sprocket is simpler, it is quicker, it can let you get a better tune and can be done with a couple of sockets, some pins are a help but not actually necessary and it can be done in a very short time without disturbing half the injection system.

In this case I suspect that Al203 doesn't have a dial indicator and the relevant boss and extensions to hook one up to his FIP.

I have never opted to use my Mitutoyo Dial Indicator over the tweak and and drive method.

Now here is the reasoning and an example behind this claim:

Diesel as sold at the pumps should have a cetane rating within an accepted specification range - the spec is around 40 to 50 odd. Synthetic diesel (BP/Shell performance stuff for example) has a higher cetane rating than your regular pump diesel - what this means is that the time for synthetic diesel to autoignite is shorter than the regular stuff, therefore it can be injected later than cheaper diesel.

An example is when I started to run my 2.5NA on a lot of bio-diesel back in the early 00's, bio has a relatively high cetane rating 55-65 depending on process and final chemical structure, the stuff I was making was possibly about 60 and it was a bit clattery so I timed it on a 50% bio diesel blend because on bio you want it retarded a little due to the shorter auto-ignition time. In an ideal world auto ignition of diesel would be the same all over the place, it is not, so therefore this absolute setting of the pump is not the best option. Most african diesel for example is awful, you want that in the engine much earlier and the only way to time it up, is the tweak and drive method!
 
discomania said:
Therein may lie your problem, setting the timing by the pins is only the factory standard set, which was just to get it sort of somewhere that should work but by no means optimised at all and from timing all the diesels I have had I can tell you the factory set is rarely that good!

Now you don't do the FIP timing adjustment on these by rotating the pump on the casing. It is a whole lot easier than that, you remove the rubber bung on the front of the timing chest and you will see the timing pump sprocket, you pin it, then loosen the 3 bolts a little then you can rotate the timing sprocket hub independently to the driven part of the sprocket. The pump will move easily, so you can then use smaller or bigger pins (drill bits) as a gauge.

I can't remember where I ended up leaving my timing in relation to where where it was, but for topic of discussion I started with say a 7.5mm drill and took it down to about a 6.5mm or a 6.75mm drill bit, I did this simply to give me reference to my adjustments.

The good thing here is this, if you make a mess of it, you put the locking pin (drill: 11/32) back in and you are back to where you started.
Click to expand...
Very informative, cheers. :D

discomania said:
In this case I suspect that Al203 doesn't have a dial indicator and the relevant boss and extensions to hook one up to his FIP.
Click to expand...
Well, I take great exception to that remark ;) I do have a dial indicator, much to @neilly 's amusement. :D If you haven't cottoned on yet, neilly has quite a dial indicator/ dial test indicator fetish.
When you rotate the timing sprocket hub, how do the holes change diameter or do you create a smaller/larger ellipse which grips the drill bits?
After you've adjusted it a bit, is it a case of driving it to see if it's better, then adjust again on a trial an error basis?
 
neilly said:
But is it better to do what you suggest above or set the pump using a Dial indicator on the rear of the pump to measure the stroke and set the timing that way?

Cheers
Click to expand...
drill bits of decreasing size is better as its dynamic and takes into account all the variable
 
Al2O3 said:
Hmmm, perhaps fetish is too strong a word. Perhaps.............. :eek:
Click to expand...

That, and these are NOT Vernier calipers......................
31yrogdlWzL.jpg


What can I say.............................:p:p

Cheers
 
neilly said:
That, and these are NOT Vernier calipers......................
View attachment 134030

What can I say.............................:p:p

Cheers
Click to expand...
And they're certainly not vernier 'test' calipers. :D I'm not a fetishist, but are they digital calipers by any chance? I'm preparing myself to be shot down in flames :)

jamesmartin said:
std 1/2 mm .9.5mm then 9mm etc
Click to expand...
So you try adjustments in 0.5mm intervals?
 
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