300Tdi Injection Pump Refurb Advice

Al2O3 · Oct 22, 2017

My Landy is pulling and running really well since the engine rebuild. However, I do think there is a bit of a flat spot as the revs increase, especially noticeable in the lower gears. That is in 2nd and 3rd I feel as though it should be able to rev higher and so pull a little longer in those gears, but it flattens off. As the engine has been rebuilt I'm thinking the FIP may be causing it. Could it be something as simple as throttle cable adjustment? As it's 21 years old and done 185k I'm thinking the FIP must be due some attention and so it's worth getting it serviced anyway. I've been looking at Diesel Bob's site. At the age/mileage it's at I'm thinking a full overhaul is probably due. Or, overdue - what do you reckon?

neilly · Oct 22, 2017

The throttle cable is easy enough to check for adjustment. Mine worked itself loose , the plastic adjustment nut was not as tight as it should have been. Went for a drive one day and it was as flat as a flat thing on a flat day. I was thinking the worse to open the bonnet and find the cable all slack. Adjusted back to where it should be and hey presto all was good, But this affected all gears.

Have you had your injectors serviced?

Cheers

Al2O3 · Oct 22, 2017

neilly said:
The throttle cable is easy enough to check for adjustment. Mine worked itself loose , the plastic adjustment nut was not as tight as it should have been. Went for a drive one day and it was as flat as a flat thing on a flat day. I was thinking the worse to open the bonnet and find the cable all slack. Adjusted back to where it should be and hey presto all was good, But this affected all gears.

Have you had your injectors serviced?

Cheers

I bought four refurbished injectors when I did the engine.
At what sort of age/mileage do FIPS need a service/overhaul?

jamesmartin · Oct 22, 2017

Al2O3 said:
My Landy is pulling and running really well since the engine rebuild. However, I do think there is a bit of a flat spot as the revs increase, especially noticeable in the lower gears. That is in 2nd and 3rd I feel as though it should be able to rev higher and so pull a little longer in those gears, but it flattens off. As the engine has been rebuilt I'm thinking the FIP may be causing it. Could it be something as simple as throttle cable adjustment? As it's 21 years old and done 185k I'm thinking the FIP must be due some attention and so it's worth getting it serviced anyway. I've been looking at Diesel Bob's site. At the age/mileage it's at I'm thinking a full overhaul is probably due. Or, overdue - what do you reckon?

if your going to have it done budget about 400 as unless the wearing parts are replaced there often little point

Al2O3 · Oct 22, 2017

jamesmartin said:
if your going to have it done budget about 400 as unless the wearing parts are replaced there often little point

I know there's no definitive answer to this James, but do you think it's due an overhaul given it's age and the miles it has covered?
Diesel Bob's website quotes from £295 for a full overhaul, presumably that's without moving parts being replaced?

jamesmartin · Oct 22, 2017

Al2O3 said:
I know there's no definitive answer to this James, but do you think it's due an overhaul given it's age and the miles it has covered?
Diesel Bob's website quotes from £295 for a full overhaul, presumably that's without moving parts being replaced?

if its working well i wouldnt bother, but if your concerned about it perhaps at least have it tested on a rig before an overhaul

Al2O3 · Oct 22, 2017

jamesmartin said:
if its working well i wouldnt bother, but if your concerned about it perhaps at least have it tested on a rig before an overhaul

Am I being OTT? It's certainly working and possibly working well. I'm possibly over focusing on those 'flat spots', cos they irritate me

I was thinking it may be needing an overhaul anyway and so thought I might be killing two birds with one stone.
How many miles have you known them go for without needing a service?

jamesmartin · Oct 22, 2017

Al2O3 said:
Am I being OTT? It's certainly working and possibly working well. I'm possibly over focusing on those 'flat spots', cos they irritate me I was thinking it may be needing an overhaul anyway and so thought I might be killing two birds with one stone.
How many miles have you known them go for without needing a service?

unless you change the wearing part that arent so cheap you might be making things worse , having it tested will have a cost but youd then know how well it worked throughout its range, when they need doing it become obvious usually

Al2O3 · Oct 22, 2017

jamesmartin said:
unless you change the wearing part that arent so cheap you might be making things worse , having it tested will have a cost but youd then know how well it worked throughout its range, when they need doing it become obvious usually

Ha, ha, but only obvious if you have your sort of experience and know what to look for.

Looks like getting it tested is on the cards. I suppose it's not urgent. Cheers, James.

zeaphod · Oct 23, 2017

What condition is the turbo in? Might be worth checking your boost. Definitely worth comparing to another vehicle. I have a bit of a flat spot near the top of the rev range - e.g. above 30mph in third, but I just change up and use the torque. I thought it was normal.

Gmacz · Oct 23, 2017

Have you done the injection pump tweak. Makes a big difference for such a little bit of work. 300tdi injectoon pump tweak in a google will show you how. I just turned diaphragm to best position and now no dead spots.

lynall · Oct 23, 2017

If the pump is totally std then the flat spots could well be normal, I think I would give it a little tweak and see if it improves thins, takes minutes and costs nowt.
The tdi in my series has a totally std pump and its real flat, the tdi in the 90 has been played with and a boost ring and pulls hard.
Ive had tdis for years and only had one pump go down and I think thats because it was ran on veg oil in the past.

Also worth trying the tdi boost ring, not boost pin but boost ring

Al2O3 · Oct 23, 2017

zeaphod said:
What condition is the turbo in? Might be worth checking your boost. Definitely worth comparing to another vehicle. I have a bit of a flat spot near the top of the rev range - e.g. above 30mph in third, but I just change up and use the torque. I thought it was normal.

Just put a reconditioned turbo on it after rebuilding the engine. Turbo is working well.

Gmacz said:
Have you done the injection pump tweak. Makes a big difference for such a little bit of work. 300tdi injectoon pump tweak in a google will show you how. I just turned diaphragm to best position and now no dead spots.

No haven't done the tweak. TBH I would be happy with the standard set up if I thought it was working ok and proving fuel as effectively as possible.

lynall said:
If the pump is totally std then the flat spots could well be normal, I think I would give it a little tweak and see if it improves thins, takes minutes and costs nowt.
The tdi in my series has a totally std pump and its real flat, the tdi in the 90 has been played with and a boost ring and pulls hard.
Ive had tdis for years and only had one pump go down and I think thats because it was ran on veg oil in the past.

Also worth trying the tdi boost ring, not boost pin but boost ring

Yeah, pump is totally standard. Hmmm, I might consider a tweak. Presumably you can do a slight tweak without uprating the intercooler?

lynall · Oct 23, 2017

Al2O3 said:
Just put a reconditioned turbo on it after rebuilding the engine. Turbo is working well.

No haven't done the tweak. TBH I would be happy with the standard set up if I thought it was working ok and proving fuel as effectively as possible.

Yeah, pump is totally standard. Hmmm, I might consider a tweak. Presumably you can do a slight tweak without uprating the intercooler?

You can literally do whatever you want with zero issues tbh bigger cooler not needed unless you start going mental with things.
I would recommend 90 degree turn clockwise on the diaphragm and 90 degree turn clockwise on the fuel screw, try and be reasonably accurate with the amount you turn so you can turn back if you need to for any reason.
If the fuel screw still has the plastic security cover on that can be flicked off with a screwdriver and if it still has the spot welded on cover on the threads theres no need to remove that as you can get 90 degrees with it still fitted, there is literally loads you can mess around with but these two adjustments will certainly make it a nicer drive.

Al2O3 · Oct 23, 2017

lynall said:
You can literally do whatever you want with zero issues tbh bigger cooler not needed unless you start going mental with things.
I would recommend 90 degree turn clockwise on the diaphragm and 90 degree turn clockwise on the fuel screw, try and be reasonably accurate with the amount you turn so you can turn back if you need to for any reason.
If the fuel screw still has the plastic security cover on that can be flicked off with a screwdriver and if it still has the spot welded on cover on the threads theres no need to remove that as you can get 90 degrees with it still fitted, there is literally loads you can mess around with but these two adjustments will certainly make it a nicer drive.

Cheers, lynall. That must be an insurance company notification job? I don't know why, but I'm a bit twitchy about altering the pump from standard LR settings.

lynall · Oct 24, 2017

Al2O3 said:
Cheers, lynall. That must be an insurance company notification job? I don't know why, but I'm a bit twitchy about altering the pump from standard LR settings.

If you dont bust the metal seal then no one needs to know its been done, and tbh no ones ever going to look or know as injector pumps are a mystery to just about everyone including mechanics.
It doesnt turn the car into a snarling beast (sadly!) it just makes it nicer to drive.

discomania · Oct 24, 2017

Al2O3 said:
Just put a reconditioned turbo on it after rebuilding the engine. Turbo is working well.

No haven't done the tweak. TBH I would be happy with the standard set up if I thought it was working ok and proving fuel as effectively as possible.

Yeah, pump is totally standard. Hmmm, I might consider a tweak. Presumably you can do a slight tweak without uprating the intercooler?

Have you considered looking at tweaking the timing? How is your timing setup? I tweaked my FIP timing a number of years ago and the difference was significant, I got it more or less spot on and it pulled harder, it was smoother, less smoke, quicker pickup and better top end performance. All for about 25 minutes of tweaking and test driving between tweaks. I first started by removing all clatter on revving (retard it), then started to add it back (advance it) but to a lesser extent then just tweak it very slightly until the things performs nicely.

discomania · Oct 24, 2017

Al2O3 said:
I don't know why, but I'm a bit twitchy about altering the pump from standard LR settings.

So am I, my worry are the rockets out there who tweak pumps and don't know what they are doing, don't care or don't know the consequences of their actions, you end up buying a pump/engine or whole vehicle with a screwed up(pardon the pun) injection pump and the only way to get it back to factory is to get it onto a Bosch test bench.

The insurance thing is an interesting one, technically you are correct, it is a performance upgrade at the end of the day. In the event of a fatal accident they would seize the vehicle and inspect it (read: strip it to bits!) for any defects or alterations. If the pump was just tweaked they would probably never notice, but if the thing is turned up significantly they would use this as a factor in their investigation speed related or not. Then you could play the "I didn't know card" but in this case you would need to prove you didn't, not them proving you did!

A friend of a family friend killed a drunk man on a dark country lane one night, she didn't even know she had done it thinking she had clipped a fox or something, but the guy had been in the verge obscured by hedges and what not. Ultimately she was exonerated but they took her car in and stripped it down to bits looking for any defects etc. So even though the situation would have been identical had it involved a brand new perfect condition vehicle they still felt this need to try and place some blame on her!

Gazbo · Oct 24, 2017

Al2O3 said:
Cheers, lynall. That must be an insurance company notification job? I don't know why, but I'm a bit twitchy about altering the pump from standard LR settings.

If you do adjust the pump and make a stuff up of the adjustment you will need to place the pump in the hands of a diesel shop, if you have doubts about your abilities to do the adjustment, or any of the advice given here, regards adjustments, cut out the middle man, put the pump into a workshop for refurb and re-adjustments to spec. I have mates here who claim to have "improved" the performance of their 300Tdi's by mucking with the pumps, funny thing is their Discos go just the same as my old beast that is bog stock. Their Discos certainly blow more black smoke/burn more fuel.
I am not seeking to start an arguement with those who believe they have "improved" the abilities of theit tdi's, just saying what I've found, and I'd advise caution unless you are a Bosch factory trained injection mechanic, and if you were you wouldn't need to ask the questions, all just my opinion.
The Bosch VE IP is an old design, but is a fairly precise and complex device.

Al2O3 · Oct 24, 2017

discomania said:
Have you considered looking at tweaking the timing? How is your timing setup? I tweaked my FIP timing a number of years ago and the difference was significant, I got it more or less spot on and it pulled harder, it was smoother, less smoke, quicker pickup and better top end performance. All for about 25 minutes of tweaking and test driving between tweaks. I first started by removing all clatter on revving (retard it), then started to add it back (advance it) but to a lesser extent then just tweak it very slightly until the things performs nicely.

I've never touched the FIP timing. When I did the engine rebuild I never loosened the FIP on the casing. The timing I set up with a set of bought timing kit pins.

discomania said:
So am I, my worry are the rockets out there who tweak pumps and don't know what they are doing, don't care or don't know the consequences of their actions, you end up buying a pump/engine or whole vehicle with a screwed up(pardon the pun) injection pump and the only way to get it back to factory is to get it onto a Bosch test bench.

The insurance thing is an interesting one, technically you are correct, it is a performance upgrade at the end of the day. In the event of a fatal accident they would seize the vehicle and inspect it (read: strip it to bits!) for any defects or alterations. If the pump was just tweaked they would probably never notice, but if the thing is turned up significantly they would use this as a factor in their investigation speed related or not. Then you could play the "I didn't know card" but in this case you would need to prove you didn't, not them proving you did!

A friend of a family friend killed a drunk man on a dark country lane one night, she didn't even know she had done it thinking she had clipped a fox or something, but the guy had been in the verge obscured by hedges and what not. Ultimately she was exonerated but they took her car in and stripped it down to bits looking for any defects etc. So even though the situation would have been identical had it involved a brand new perfect condition vehicle they still felt this need to try and place some blame on her!

Gazbo said:
If you do adjust the pump and make a stuff up of the adjustment you will need to place the pump in the hands of a diesel shop, if you have doubts about your abilities to do the adjustment, or any of the advice given here, regards adjustments, cut out the middle man, put the pump into a workshop for refurb and re-adjustments to spec. I have mates here who claim to have "improved" the performance of their 300Tdi's by mucking with the pumps, funny thing is their Discos go just the same as my old beast that is bog stock. Their Discos certainly blow more black smoke/burn more fuel.
I am not seeking to start an arguement with those who believe they have "improved" the abilities of theit tdi's, just saying what I've found, and I'd advise caution unless you are a Bosch factory trained injection mechanic, and if you were you wouldn't need to ask the questions, all just my opinion.
The Bosch VE IP is an old design, but is a fairly precise and complex device.

You've explained my twitchyness.

Not looking for an argument either and all advice/suggestions/experiences are welcomed as they help come to an informed decision. TBH I'm happy with the reconditioned engine and the way it is pulling, but these flat spots in the rev range have caught my attention. I might take it to my local indie, who I have known for years, and ask them to take it out on a test drive. They deal with a few dozen Landies a week and so should be able to tell me how it compares.
Cheers all.

300Tdi Injection Pump Refurb Advice

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