200 head off still no result - smoke and missing

Took the head of the 200 today hoping to find that it had failed.

but its perfect.
so things that I've checked to sort out blue smoke are.

took turbo pipe off
replaced injector pump
replaced lift pump
replaced injectors
replaced fuel pipes
ran engine on fresh diesel from a can
replaced fuel filter
replaced fuel filter housing
checked head gasket
checked tappets
all valves ok
replaced timing belt
rechecked fuel pump timing etc.

still ran with blue smoke, then cleared then smoke , slight miss around 2000rpm then blue smoke . revved the bollocks off it and no smoke, all clear, stop engine, start up again and blue smoke, lots of it, rev bollocks off it and clear as a bell, stop it and start it again , blue smoke.

going to put the block on fleabay as it's perfect and scrap the rest

turbo ?

missed the missing bit, the only real reason i can think of for it missing is incomplete compression, tappets not set up properly, valves not fully closing or a crack somewhere that youve missed thats all i can put it down to, check the head again for cracks between the valves thats the most common place, ive looked at one before and thought it was alright, then looked again and found a crack.

200tdi ayre said:

turbo ?

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Ran it with turbo pipe off and still smoking.

200tdi ayre said:

missed the missing bit, the only real reason i can think of for it missing is incomplete compression, tappets not set up properly, valves not fully closing or a crack somewhere that youve missed thats all i can put it down to, check the head again for cracks between the valves thats the most common place, ive looked at one before and thought it was alright, then looked again and found a crack.

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I'll clean it off tomorrow and look between the valves....ta



.

Turbo bearing/oil seals, is there any movement in the turbo's impeller shaft???

If the heads still off, check for worn valve guides, u/s valve stem seals, if nothing is found consider dropping the sump n pulling the pistons to check for broken oil control/compression rings.

If you can borrow/obtain a bore ovality gauge or internal micrometer. Check each cylinder bore for ovality at the top, middle, bottom and compare the readings, they should all be within a couple of thou of each cylinder maximum, in a new engine they should all be the same figure allowing for oem machining tolerances.

zzr1200 said:

Turbo bearing/oil seals, is there any movement in the turbo's impeller shaft???

If the heads still off, check for worn valve guides, u/s valve stem seals, if nothing is found consider dropping the sump n pulling the pistons to check for broken oil control/compression rings.

If you can borrow/obtain a bore ovality gauge or internal micrometer. Check each cylinder bore for ovality at the top, middle, bottom and compare the readings, they should all be within a couple of thou of each cylinder maximum, in a new engine they should all be the same figure allowing for oem machining tolerances.

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Ran it without turbo,( pipe off)

Compressions spot on as per factory

Valve guides ok

Ran clear no smoke after a good blast, ticked over no smoke, revved hard no smoke tick over no smolke.
Stop engine and leave a minute then start up,,clouds of blue smoke

Rev bollocks off it and it clears until the engine stops again apart from a slight miss about 2000rpm.

goin for scrap, bin mesin with it for months, several heggspurts looked at it, checked things, scratched their heads and then dissapeared.

100k motor in good order just started missing and smoking for no apparent reason, many peeps baffled.
(baffled) not exhaust blocked btw

My 200 started smoking badly the other day, with engine idling i cracked the injector pipes one by one, only no3 made no difference to the tickover, so filter off filled with injector cleaner, another bottle in the tank after five miles started to run on all four again, smoke had stopped and ran perfect the 125 miles back home.
I would have sworn it was an oil problem.
So maybe worth a go?



Lynall

blue smoke is usually oil, piston rings ?

the once its warmed up they expand abit more, letting none through so no smoke, just a theory

landowner said:

Compressions spot on as per factory

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OK, so the compression rings appear to be good

landowner said:

Ran clear no smoke after a good blast, ticked over no smoke, revved hard no smoke tick over no smolke.
Stop engine and leave a minute then start up,,clouds of blue smoke

Rev bollocks off it and it clears until the engine stops again apart from a slight miss about 2000rpm.

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The oil control rings could still be fecked...

Have you had any other problems with oil leaks or just this one???

compression aint necessarily got anything to do with oil burning is cross hatched worn through to polished bore

but it missing and burning oil leads me to think piston rings as they seem to back each other up

zzr1200 said:

OK, so the compression rings appear to be good



The oil control rings could still be fecked...

Have you had any other problems with oil leaks or just this one???

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jamesmartin said:

compression aint necessarily got anything to do with oil burning is cross hatched worn through to polished bore

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Problem began suddenly, one minute running as it should, next missing and smoking.

Good sound motor with 100k on it, serviced regularly, no problems prior to this.

I thought you had got to the bottom of this problem. Don't scrap it just yet, mine was doing the exact same thing remember. That said, there seemed to be a flurry of people on here experiencing similar problems with their 200tdi's around the beginning of winter last year and then the topics just came to an abrupt end with no real answers or resolutions. I did make significant progress with my engine however. It no longer kicks out plumes of blue smoke from a startup, nor does it miss once it has had a bit of a blast. Fitting an entirely new fuel line seems to have helped in the most part but I am still convinced that there is a problem in my fuel setup somewhere because it does hunt from a hot or cold start if the engine has been switched off for more than five or ten minutes. The only thing that can possibly be happening here is fuel escaping from the system and air being allowed in, thus de-priming the fuel system every time the engine is switched off. The engine will idle smoothly all day once it has had a bit of work and any air has been expelled from the fuel lines. One thing that has come to my attention is the return line plumbing on my engine. CharlesY suggested that the return pipe should not protrude the fuel tank, but rather just flow into the top of it. In other words, the tube should not be submerged in fuel but this is technically impossible with a full tank of fuel. I would suggest that you try something:

Find the two biggest glass bottles / beakers that you can and half fill both of them with diesel. Have one bottle rigged up to your lift pump inlet and one rigged up to the return from your injection pump, with the return line above the fuel level and place both bottles next to one another. Start the engine and watch the levels very carefully whilst revving it hard for about thirty seconds to expel any air. See how the engine runs. Next, ensure both bottles contain an even amount of fuel again but this time, ensure that the return line is below fuel level. Start and run the engine hard for about thirty seconds. Does it run any differently with the return line above or below the fuel level?

Also, how is the return flow level? It should gush just as much when the engine first fires up as it does when it has been running for thirty seconds or so. There should be absolutely no delay between the engine starting and fuel being returned. Blue smoke isn't necessarily just burning oil, it can be created by a combination of intense over fuelling. Diesel is oil after all.

-Tom

landowner said:

Problem began suddenly, one minute running as it should, next missing and smoking.

Good sound motor with 100k on it, serviced regularly, no problems prior to this.

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It could possibly be a broken oil control ring,

If the sump can be removed while the engines in the chassis it shouldn't take to long to pull the pistons, to check, hone the bores and fit new rings after cleaning the ring lands.

unless honing is done with proper honing machine your wasting your time ,glaze busters or stones on drill arent effective

Done all the fuel things and renewed leakoffs an watched fuel returning (pipe off)
Everything to do with fuel side has been replaced inc pump, lift pump, filter housing, filter, pipes, injectors and diesel fuel and the little filter in the return pipe banjo on the pump.

dont think it's a ring problem as cylinders are not sooted up they are very tidy as they should be.

Could be turbo seal letting oil into the exhaust and burning in the system perhaps.

Not on the intake side of the turbo as that has been eliminated by taking th epipes off when running.

Give up anyway and taken it out

landowner said:

Done all the fuel things and renewed leakoffs an watched fuel returning (pipe off)
Everything to do with fuel side has been replaced inc pump, lift pump, filter housing, filter, pipes, injectors and diesel fuel and the little filter in the return pipe banjo on the pump.

dont think it's a ring problem as cylinders are not sooted up they are very tidy as they should be.

Could be turbo seal letting oil into the exhaust and burning in the system perhaps.

Not on the intake side of the turbo as that has been eliminated by taking th epipes off when running.

Give up anyway and taken it out

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Did you check your timing gear properly? You could very easily have had a worn keyway or a loose woodruff key on the crank or the cam.

pos said:

Did you check your timing gear properly? You could very easily have had a worn keyway or a loose woodruff key on the crank or the cam.

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Took cambelt off and timed it all up again (Propperly and twice to make sure) with new belt, all in good order.

jamesmartin said:

,glaze busters or stones on drill arent effective

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So thousands upon thousands of engines rebuilt with new rings in old bores, which were glaze busted or honed with tri-legged spring loaded stones was a total waste of time was it???

I have both types of hone the three legged glaze buster and a true finishing hone used after a rebore to a finished size.

You dont use a true finishing hone unless the bore has been machined or its a press fit liner which requires finishing to size.