Torque Converter blown (twice)

[WorRen]

53 Plate L322 Petrol 4.4 V8
When I bought the car, one owner from new, full main dealer history, 98k miles, it had a known gearbox problem (no drive) owner said it was a transfer box problem.
However when inspected the gearbox was removed and refurbished and the torque converter was mashed up and so was the pump, so both were replaced with refurbished ones, so:
Refurbished grearbox, pump and torque converter. at the time he said that he had never seen anything like it happen before. (and he is very well experienced in these gearboxes)
It drove fine, though there was a slight noise sounding like a UJ or a brake disk binding corresponding with about once per wheel revolution, it didn't seem major though.
1000 miles on and with no warning at all, all drive lost - when it went the feeling was just like a blown manual clutch - suddenly no drive whatsoever.
Back to the transmission specialist and he has removed and stripped it - exactly the same as before.

So the question is - what is likely to have caused it to fail?
He has suggested crankshaft end float, though the engine runs as sweet as a nut.
Any ideas please?
Thx

 

[Henry_b]

Lack of oil?

Converter not fitted correctly?

 

[tomcat59alan]

Well the crank endfloat will be easy to measure with the gearbox out.

 

[Datatek]

Debris in the oil cooler circuit perhaps?

 

[WorRen]

Shouldn't have been debris as he is very well known in the midlands and recommended by most if not all of the independents, so unless he didn't flush it out properly last time...
Also had no oil leaks on the drive either before or after the failure.

What end float would be permissible?

Thx

 

[Henry_b]

I would of replaced the Lines and cooler as part of the tranny refresh..

It's possible there is old clutch material and debris running through the new gearbox.

 

[WorRen]

I appreciate that that could damage the gearbox, however its the torque converter that's been knackered.. They are pretty basic devices and it's the drive end into the gearbox that's gone again....

 

[Datatek]

Torque convertor not correctly located in the oil pump on the box when the unit was installed.

 

[Henry_b]

I appreciate that that could damage the gearbox, however its the torque converter that's been knackered.. They are pretty basic devices and it's the drive end into the gearbox that's gone again....

There is a clutch in the converter,

Fluid also passes through the converter and is contained in it

 

[WorRen]

Just trying to understand why would that damage the outside / end of the converter, I can understand the inside clutch getting damaged.
See the photos of the end of the unit and the bearing it should sit in in the gearbox.

Is there anything else that could have caused it - after all what caused it first time round ?......

 

[Henry_b]

Just trying to understand why would that damage the outside / end of the converter, I can understand the inside clutch getting damaged.
See the photos of the end of the unit and the bearing it should sit in in the gearbox.

Is there anything else that could have caused it - after all what caused it first time round ?......

Converter Incorrectly fitted

 

[WorRen]

Hi Henry_b, appreciate your replies, thx.
OK so that could cause the 2nd failure, but what about the first time?
As that is also an unusual failure.
Could it be anything in the drivetrain - Transfer Box, Propshaft UJ's Driveshaft dampers, Diffs, is there a any type of balancing device on the flywheel / crank?
is the 'binding'' sound at once per wheel revolution anything to do with it or just something else that needs to be investigated and fixed sometime.

 

[Henry_b]

Hi Henry_b, appreciate your replies, thx.
OK so that could cause the 2nd failure, but what about the first time?
As that is also an unusual failure.
Could it be anything in the drivetrain - Transfer Box, Propshaft UJ's Driveshaft dampers, Diffs, is there a any type of balancing device on the flywheel / crank?
is the 'binding'' sound at once per wheel revolution anything to do with it or just something else that needs to be investigated and fixed sometime.

The 1st time is common the 5hp24 isn't really suited to the l322 and it suffers from internal clutch and TQ isses.

2nd time was more than likely an incorrectly fitted TQ, not located on the pump properly.

Binding noise could be brake related..

 

[Saint.V8]

Maybe if I tag @Bemble he will pick up this post and give you a definitive answer - and when I say definitive, I truly mean definitive. He is the de facto Leading Authority in the UK on the ZF 5HP24 box, and there is absolutely no-one else in the country, not even Mackies, JPAT, Sussex Autos et al can hold a candle to our man the legend that is RRPhil (Bemble) (no offence to them, they are awesome geniuses in themselves I admit).

 

[Mark Piercy]

It would have to be a lot of crank end play??
Where are the smashed parts from?

 

[Mark Piercy]

What about a bent drive plate?
Mind you, there would be vibration throughout the transmission...

 

[WorRen]

Thanks all, appreciate the responses, be good to hear from @Bemble
The parts are from my box
Sussex provided the refurbed TQ, the work was done by Ken at Transmission Technologies in Knowle (Solihull) he came highly recommended by 3 different local independent land rover specialists.

 

[WorRen]

Been and looked at it currently all dismantled, it’s the pump that has failed.
And the end of the torque converter that engages with the pump has been mashed up.
There is no swarf whatsoever floating around the gearbox it’s completely in pieces at moment, trans-fluid and filter clean as a whistle, all valves work et cetera
No issues with crankshaft end float.
And they've checked that the drive plate is all good too.
The experts are currently flummoxed as they are getting on doing a complete rebuild (at their cost ) though they also want to find the cause so it doesn’t happen again.
....

 

[jamesmartin]

53 Plate L322 Petrol 4.4 V8
When I bought the car, one owner from new, full main dealer history, 98k miles, it had a known gearbox problem (no drive) owner said it was a transfer box problem.
However when inspected the gearbox was removed and refurbished and the torque converter was mashed up and so was the pump, so both were replaced with refurbished ones, so:
Refurbished grearbox, pump and torque converter. at the time he said that he had never seen anything like it happen before. (and he is very well experienced in these gearboxes)
It drove fine, though there was a slight noise sounding like a UJ or a brake disk binding corresponding with about once per wheel revolution, it didn't seem major though.
1000 miles on and with no warning at all, all drive lost - when it went the feeling was just like a blown manual clutch - suddenly no drive whatsoever.
Back to the transmission specialist and he has removed and stripped it - exactly the same as before.

So the question is - what is likely to have caused it to fail?
He has suggested crankshaft end float, though the engine runs as sweet as a nut.
Any ideas please?
Thx

looks like t/c protrudes too far into the box earlier t/cs can be adjusted by adding or removing shims to position distance from engine t/c is

 

[WorRen]

looks like t/c protrudes too far into the box earlier t/cs can be adjusted by adding or removing shims to position distance from engine t/c is

Yep, that's why they were thinking crankshaft end float and or drive plate.
Thinking that when the engine develops power / torque the tq is pushed into the pump - as on the first failure / posting / group of photos the pump is smashed internally.
he still had the old pump in the scrap bin (that's why ot has rust on it now - see photo below