Custom TC

[Charlot]

Ok just an idea for a project. Is it possible to install, in an FL1 (2000 td4 equipped with TC and HDC) a system similar to the ones in more modern offroaders for overriding TC and can be programmed (difference in wheel sensor feedback) to kick in manually or automatically when 1 front and 1rear opposite wheels are off the ground and spinning freely so to transfer power to the tyres on the ground.

Thinking of using a programmable controller such as the raspi or smilar and tap in the abs sensors and or connect directly to the abs pump.

This would be a temporary system and not permanently installed.

I know this is essentially how the exsisting system in my FL1 works but not sure how sensitive if it works as I have never seen it work except in HDC.

Ideas? Also how does the FL2 system work what sensors does it use? Easier to retro fit an existing system from another vehicle/make?
OR any aftermarket kits who tap into the abs system as only one I found control the injectors and play with fuel supply.

Just looking for options and ideas.

 

[Nodge68]

The easiest thing to do would be to use the later ABS modulator from a 2004 TD4. They use a higher modulation rate than the earlier systems. It would be difficult to take the FL2 system, as it's completely different, using different firmware. The FL2 has more sensors including a 4 axis accelerometer and a steering angle sensor. The FL2 system is also able to control engine torque output and a host of other things.

 

[Charlot]

Are they (2004 onwards) a direct swap?

And I also have the sensor installed near the handbrake lever. What does that mean? Newer version of abs/tc as I read about other drivers who didn't have these installed. What system uses this and for what feedback/conditions?

 

[Nodge68]

Are they (2004 onwards) a direct swap?

And I also have the sensor installed near the handbrake lever. What does that mean? Newer version of abs/tc as I read about other drivers who didn't have these installed. What system uses this and for what feedback/conditions?

The later ABS modulator isn't a straightforward swap. The hubs and sensors are different as are the wheel bearings.
It's probably not worth the effort to be honest. If you are after increased traction. A torque biasing rear diff will be the best improvement.

All A1 chassis FL1s have a linear accelerometer. It's there to help the HDC with slop angle assessment.

 

[Charlot]

Not exactly cheaper
https://shop.quaife.co.uk/land-rover-freelander-rear-quaife-atb-helical-lsd-differential
More worth it getting a braking ppst 2004 one and replace everything.

Post 2004 FL1s , don't have the abs ring on the oit side? And signals / voltages given by sensors are different on early than newer ones. Right?

 

[Nodge68]

Not exactly cheaper
https://shop.quaife.co.uk/land-rover-freelander-rear-quaife-atb-helical-lsd-differential
More worth it getting a braking ppst 2004 one and replace everything.

Post 2004 FL1s , don't have the abs ring on the oit side? And signals / voltages given by sensors are different on early than newer ones. Right?

The later ABS unit is faster acting than the earlier unit. It modulates the brakes faster, almost buzzing them. It's still not capable of locking the spinning wheel though. No system can fully lock the wheel, or the sensor signal is lost. All these system simply slow wheel rotation down a bit.

Nothing can beat a proper mechanical locking diff. The Quaife unit is exceptional. I have one in my 72 Avenger GT. It stops the wheel spin completely.
I'd have no hesitation on fitting one into my FL1. I just can't justify the expense.
If you need more traction, that's the best way to go.

 

[rob_bell]

Hi Charlot,

Any thing is possible with determination and access to the right expertise - so this is something I personally wouldn't attempt. Would you be making your own ECU and programming it yourself?

 

[Charlot]

Well I'm not an expert that's why I'm investigating the system 1st. Am currently looking at the arduino board for potential.
Don't want to permanently replace the existing system but install a secondary one that can be switched on and replace temporary the existing one. As nudge said its not powerfull enough but would be mpre controllable than my existing one. Maybe give power to manually set difference in wheel revs etc..
System would control existing abs system. Either tap in the abs sensors and mess with the signal to the ecu or just tep the sensors for feedback and drive the abs unit replacing the ecu.
Easier said than done but don't think it would be much complicated. Esp the 1st scenario.
Any one have a part number for the modern abs/tc module? So I can look for manuals and data.preferibly the one used on the td4

 

[rob_bell]

I guess there's a number of things you could do - including force vectoring. You could have quite a bit of fun with this and learn a lot along the way

 

[Charlot]

Force vectoring As in study the data from the different sensors?

 

[rob_bell]

LOL, yes, that was the idea - although without a steering position sensor probably not feasible. Or that necessary anyway on a Freelander?

 

[Charlot]

Don't think that would be an issue as current system doesn't use it anyway. Think that can be overcome by calculating the difference in rotations between wheels and on full lock and put that as the minimum value.
That would be the default difference when all wheels are moving (on the ground) Only would that not apply (minimum difference in rotation) when a minimum of 1 wheel is not turning. Then that would be suspended untill all wheels are turning again.

 

[rob_bell]

Sounds logical

 

[Charlot]

Well that's the logical/theory part. Next the practical/technical part.

 

[rob_bell]

I guess this is what the HDC does - not sure how much TC differs?

 

[Charlot]

Have found some difficulties when going over an axel twister in my 2000 td4. Tried also with HDC which works on other ocasions and also tried it without. Kept revving as per other suggestions but always found it difficult although always made it past. Tc bever kicked in nor on the road but HDC works fine when down hill and can also feel the banging of brakes. But never any help when offroad.

Feel like it only works when all wheels on the ground.

I'm aware thar TC was an option on earlier models but not sure about mine. I have HDC so supppse I should also have TC. And when I turn ignition on the TC check light comes on and goes away as supposed. But never seen it or felt it work. Wet Roundabouts, loose gravel, grass etc.. no warning lights although never checked with diagnostic software. VCU also works as should. tested.

@Nodge68 e68 is there a physical way to check if it is installed?

 

[Nodge68]

Have found some difficulties when going over an axel twister in my 2000 td4. Tried also with HDC which works on other ocasions and also tried it without. Kept revving as per other suggestions but always found it difficult although always made it past. Tc bever kicked in nor on the road but HDC works fine when down hill and can also feel the banging of brakes. But never any help when offroad.

Feel like it only works when all wheels on the ground.

I'm aware thar TC was an option on earlier models but not sure about mine. I have HDC so supppse I should also have TC. And when I turn ignition on the TC check light comes on and goes away as supposed. But never seen it or felt it work. Wet Roundabouts, loose gravel, grass etc.. no warning lights although never checked with diagnostic software. VCU also works as should. tested.

@Nudge68 is there a physical way to check if it is installed?

Yes you have TC. It's all included in the EBS ECU. So if you have HDC. You also have ABS and TC. My V6 TC was very evident all the time. My current TD4, less so. It does still kick in if I'm cross axled though. The more power you apply. The harder the ECU tries to brake the spinning wheels.

 

[Charlot]

Will try connecting to a diagnostic software check for any codes if any. Or is it possible to reset/refresh system?

 

[rob_bell]

I haven't tried axle twisters in my FL1 yet, but in a muddy rut where the car grounded out, the difference between TC and HDC was extremely evidence. Clicking HDC in helped the car crawl out by preventing the unloaded wheel(s) from spinning away all the torque/power.

 

[GrumpyGel]

If you start talking about swapping out the whole ABS system for a later version, that's a massive job - especially if you're thinking of a system that was never in an F1. As Nodge says there is the physical/mechanical aspects of different sensor/reluctor/bearing types - but also all the car networking - even down to silly little things like getting the ABS light lit and off again to get a MOT.

You talk about using an Arduino. As I see it, that is probably the easiest option - in the same way the torque boxes work on an engine. With those, all the sensors connect to the 'box' - it does its logic on them and then sends converted signals to the engine's ECU to make it behave differently to standard. So in your case, all the ABS sensors (and possibly other feeds as well) would go to your Arduino 'box' and it would then provide patched feeds on to the ABS ECU. In normal mode you would pass the signals through 'as-is' but when you determine a condition that requires a non-standard action from the ECU - you would pass through a modified (maybe preset) sequence of signals.

However...

(1) It will be very complicated if you've never done anything like this before.
(2) I doubt you'll improve the system.

If you look at @Hippo videos on YouTube, I'm sure he's got axle twister vids on there and the standard LR system works. I don't think I was ever in an axle twister type situation while 4WD, but when I go down the river bed with my 2WD setup the TC kicks in often to keep me moving and I've never got stuck. Nodge and Hippo are running the Teves Mk25 and I'm running the Wabco system. I suppose its possible the Teves Mk20 doesn't work as well. If that's the case though, it would be quicker and cheaper to sell your Freelander and get a Mk25/Wabco one.