Window...I Know, I Know....

Ok, so I may have condemned a window motor for nothing

Got replacement, tested it with jump wires, all working, also got a pair (left & right) out stations, also working.

Fitted to George and ...."click" for up and down, all windows working except drivers, just the click from the out station relay.

Checked fuses, etc.

I read somewhere about central locking, but it works fine on key in lock an plip.

I'm pee'd off and worn out, but the plugs are changed and George "sounds" mint.

So, any idea's?

Have you used a meter to check power to the motor connections?

You may have a relay click, but it means nowt without power to and from the relay!

Didn't Bigeee have a window issue and have to solder something in the BECM?

Well, I bought another motor and TWO spare BCM's.

All clicking so obviously working in a fashion as the mirror works, as does the central locking, et al.

I tried wiggling the wires and pulled the connectors out of the "A" pillar to see if they were knackered, but no they are fine.

I understand the BCM is "clicking" so clearly it is getting a signal from he switchgear, I can also understand there is no power going to the motor.

So, I am therefore guessing there is no feed from the fuse under the seat to the door for the actual motor (I understand how relays operate, they allow big amps to go through them and small amps through the switchgear).

So, now we have narrowed that down, is there any suspects I should be tracing?

The two thick cables feeding the power to the motor are grey with a stripe at the plug, but as you'd expect, they change colour as they join other plugs and so on on their journey through from under the seat to get to the motor....

Perhaps I should run a cable from the fuse box to the BCM... Is that feasible?

Stupid car

If you change the BeCM you will also need to resync it to the engine ECU and also the keys.

Saint.V8 said:

If you change the BeCM you will also need to resync it to the engine ECU and also the keys.

Click to expand...

Ok, so how do I do that?

I know how to re-sync the key fob to get it to speak to the central locking again...

I just don't know what went wrong with it in the first instance??

Everything else is functioning as per, but the window is doing my nut.

I am off out to check for a broken wire between the fuse (under the seat, #20 or 21) and trace it from there, although I can't imagine why it would just stop all of a sudden and not blow a fuse (if a wire chafes this is the normal par for the course) no burning smells nothing?!

This car is a fighter, it fights every step of the way.

Doo said:

Ok, so how do I do that?

I know how to re-sync the key fob to get it to speak to the central locking again...

I just don't know what went wrong with it in the first instance??

Everything else is functioning as per, but the window is doing my nut.

I am off out to check for a broken wire between the fuse (under the seat, #20 or 21) and trace it from there, although I can't imagine why it would just stop all of a sudden and not blow a fuse (if a wire chafes this is the normal par for the course) no burning smells nothing?!

This car is a fighter, it fights every step of the way.

Click to expand...

You'll need diagnostics or a Syncmate to resync the BeCM to the Engine ECU.....be prepared for the BeCM to throw a wobbler and go into an 'alarmed' state which you'll need industrial strength diagnostics to beat it into submission.

The reason for the sync is so that persons with a BeCM and matched keys cannot just break into to your car, swap the BeCM and drive it away with their set of keys.....it needs to handshake and confirm the Engine ECU is the right one too before it will release the immobiliser.

Grrrrrr said:

Didn't Bigeee have a window issue and have to solder something in the BECM?

Click to expand...

He did indeed
Replaced the relay on the board under the drivers seat and all was good

I popped in past both the 4x4 specialist and the main dealer.

4x4 man in your part of the world chaps, dahn saff, back Monday, main dealer (helpful guy in there) said if the switch pack is operating all other windows & mirrors, it can't be that (no sunroof and it most definitely did NOT get wet), if the relay is clicking on the door pack there is power getting there (tested it). Asked is the central locking operating, yes key and plip. Is rear hatch opening? Yes. Do interior lights come on & go off with plip? Yes.

They are stumped

I would have gone with a wire or fuse leading to the door, but since the power is going to the relay, then I would have thought relay, but three different packs all functioning and surely they don't need coded since, as before, everything "else" worked when I fitted them (central locking, et al).

So, thanks for all suggestions, have tried most.

She's getting plugged in Monday and see if we can get to the bottom of this conundrum.

The only other thing I can think of is it's something inside the window motor which is also knackered in the 5 quid one.

Could it possibly be that? I recall Vauxhall Astra's would fail the MoT test if the windscreen wiper motor didn't "park" which would cause an obstruction! The motor, had a brass track which would wear out and prevent the motor returning to park. Is it possible this is a similar (sh!te) idea from the British school of sh!te idea's Every time I work on George, I see Wallace & Gromit, rivets, trousers and cheese

have you checked for power on the switched side of the relay?

The click is just proving the coil is pulling the switch contacts across....if there is no power on the switched side clicking means nothing.....

In anycase I thought the relay was in the BeCM not the outstation.

I have no idea where various relays are if I'm honest as it's my first foray into the world of RR, but on the outstation, there are definitely 3 relays (I assume one for up, one for down and one for all the rivets, trousers and cheese )

Now that you mention it, I assume the wires to the motor are the "out" wires, in which case there is no power going to them.

But "why" would that be the case on 3 different outstations??

My head hurts, I am off to say hi to Mr Czech Budweiser to empty my head of rivets, trousers and cheese and fill it with farts, nonsense and belching

So you have no power from the outstation to the Motor...do you have power going to the outstation from the BeCM?If you don't, the BeCM is either not picking up the signal from the window switch (check for switch continuity) or the power circuit and relay for the window in the BeCM isn't giving power to the window/outstation.

Just cos he says that because the other windows work means it isn't the the centre witch pack could be erronous information, they are individual switches mounted on a single circuit board....and individual switch can still be duff!

Whoa..... slow the bus down.... Lets not start talking BECM replacements, resyncing and new keys, and all of this just yet over one window not working... Take a step back and have a look at how the system operates and it will help narrow it down!!! IF there is a problem in the BECM then it will be on the power board, and this can be swapped to keep the original logic board, which will keep keys, engine ECU all working happily.

The window switchpack talks to the BECM over a serial link - so all of the window switch signals are multiplexed down a couple of wires. The BECM then talks to the front door outstation over a serial link aswell to tell it what to do. If the mirror, and central locking work, and you get a 'click' from the relay in the outstation when you press the window up/down button for the offending window, then the switchpack, serial links, and logic side of the BECM are all OK and doing what they should.

You problem then is EITHER in the power board of the BECM (Supplying power to the fuse/output for the window motor), Wiring to the door, outstation, or wiring from the outstation to the window motor.

The front doors/windows are a bit different in that they have 2 positive power feeds going to them - one feed powers the outstation, central locking, and the mirror. The other feed is JUST for the window motor - and feeds into the outstation on the Purple/Blue wire. This feed comes from the BECM fuse F22 (30A) and is just for the window motors in BOTH front doors.

From the BECM to the door, the Purple/Blue wire goes through a connector in the door jamb (just inside the vehicle bodywork) which is known for getting water in and corroding.

If your other front window works properly, and F22 is intact, then iF the problem is in the BECM then it is likely to just be a burnt track on the power board (which would actually be repairable).

If your vehicle was in front of me, then I would do the following steps to troubleshoot it...
1) check for +12V on pin 12 of C1284 (99MY on) / C323 (Up to 1999) which is the 12 way GREY connector on the front of the BECM. This is the feed to the Purple/Blue wire that goes to the door outstation in RH door. If +12V here (should be permanently on) then BECM is OK, and move to next test. If no 12V here, then problem is on BECM power board, and it's time to pull it out and swap the power board over (NOT the whole BECM, otherwise that introduces a whole new world of headaches - keeping your logic board will keep your vehicle 'identity' correct - EKA, Mileage, VIN, Keys etc)
2) If 12v present at BECM connector, then check the connector in the door jamb. I've found a few where they've gone a bit green and furry. If there is +12V on the vehicle loom side, but not on the door loom side, then the connector/pins are at fault. If power at BECM, but not the vehicle loom side of connector, then there's a break in the wire between BECM and connector. If 12V present on both sides of the connector, then also check for a good connection (on a continuity check, not voltage for this one) between BOTH of the black ground wires and a the ground point in behind the kick panel, or to the BECM ground.
3) If 12V present on Purple/Blue wire in the door jamb connectors, and good ground (there's a 4th wire - Purple/Black in the connector in the door jamb - this should also show 12V between it and both ground wires - which we know it should as it's the power to the rest of the outstation - which we know works!) then check for 12V at the outstation on the Purple/Blue wire. If it's made it that far, then the problem is either the relay contacts/circuit board track in the outstation itself (and it's clicking but not doing anything) OR on the output side of the outstation in the wiring TO the window motor, OR the window motor itself... If you don't have +12V at the outstation on Purple/Blue, but you did at the door jamb connector, then the fault is in the wiring between the connector and the outstation.
4) if 12V is getting as far as the outstation, then put the meter probes into the connector to the window motor (Grey/Green and Grey/White wires) and on a digital volt meter, you should see +12V with the window switch in one position, and -12V in the other (the relay in the outstation switches the polarity to make the motor run in the appropriate direction). If you get +12V/-12V when the window switch is operated, then the fault is in the motor itself. If you don't, then the fault is in the wiring from the outstation to the motor, OR the outstation itself is faulty.

It sounds like a lot to test/check - but in reality with the door card off and access to the door jamb connections, it's probably about 1/2hr testing - and will help pinpoint exactly where the problem is occuring.

Hope this helps,
Marty

Hi Marty, thank you.

I checked the fuse, it is intact (as I thought as the passenger window works).

I got 12v to the relay when I operated the switch up and down (different pins, can't recall colour of wires...).

No feed to the motor, but the motor was tested prior to fitting (I fitted a replacement as I initially thought the motor was goosed).

There is also a permanent 12v at the relay. I tried 3 different outstations, my own & two replacements, still nothing to the motor.

If it helps, I tried to reset the motor (window not set msg on dash was annoying me by this time) by holding down for count of ten when it went all the way down and up for the count of ten when all the way up. It was after this the motor stopped working.

Does that help?

Edit: I also pulled the connectors out of the "A" pillar and inspected them, they are clean and dry and no obvious breaks or kinks in the wires.

I guess I am looking at a break from the relay on the outstation to the motor am I?

So you have +/-12V on the Grey/Green and Grey/White wires at the outstation when you press the window button up/down? But not at the window motor connector?

If that's the case, then I'd do a continuity check on each of those wires to see if one has a break in it. The other 2 wires that go to the window motor are the encoder wires which the BECM uses to 'set' the window and for the anti-trap feature - but failer of these (as far as I know) won't stop window operation - but instead will just keep giving you a 'window not set' error as it will know the window is being moved, but won't know where in it's travel it is.

So I definitely think the problem is on the power side to the window motor.

Also just to confirm - you get +12V on both of the purple wires (Purple/Black and Purple/Blue) at the outstation?

I will check soon as I can....work keeps getting in the way

Ok, I don't know, I don't know

All the thin wires (yellow and such) are giving constant 10.56v or thereabout with ign on.

The thick wires (grey with a trace) give 9.54v or thereabout when the switch is activated down or up (they both give a reading).

So, either a smidgen under 10v is no good (I can't imagine why 10 volts isn't enough, but then it probably isn't) or I have a really strange fault.

So Marty I call upon your expertise here, is 10v any good?

BUMP!

Anyone?

Hot weather and it's driving me nuts that I can't open the bloomin' window

Is it a possibility this new (not "new") motor is also faulty? I can't think why as it works with jump wires, up and down whisper quiet.

Whilst you continue to scratch your head...why not rig up a temp solution with a 2 way rocker switch, fused supply and a few wires

I could, but I just want to find a solution.

I really cant figure "why" a shade less than 10v wont send the window up or down. In my head, it would be a tad slower than normal, but it should still work.

The only thing I can think of is Wallace with his rivets, trousers and bloody cheese