White smoke and stutters after cold start

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dattard21

New Member
Posts
53
Hi all,

it's been a while since I posted here!

My TD5 (Defender 90), when it's been switched off for a while and is cold throws some thick grey/white smoke for a few seconds when I drive off. It only does it for a few seconds, maybe 10 to 15 seconds and then it's ok. Whilst its something it sort of stutters, like one of the cylinders is missing or something like that.

I put in some injector cleaner, but it hasn't made any difference at all. I did a diagnostic check twice, once it gave "Injector 2 Peak Charge Long" and "Injector 2 Open Circuit Detected". Those faults were cleared and drove for a few weeks with the same smoke coming out, another diagnostic check did not give those faults?

The mechanic told me the type of smoke looks like it's diesel not burning well...

Any ideas what could be going on? The heaters are bust maybe and the burn on the diesel is not good for the first few seconds until the cylinders warms up?

Thanks!
 
dattard21 said:
Hi all,

it's been a while since I posted here!

My TD5 (Defender 90), when it's been switched off for a while and is cold throws some thick grey/white smoke for a few seconds when I drive off. It only does it for a few seconds, maybe 10 to 15 seconds and then it's ok. Whilst its something it sort of stutters, like one of the cylinders is missing or something like that.

I put in some injector cleaner, but it hasn't made any difference at all. I did a diagnostic check twice, once it gave "Injector 2 Peak Charge Long" and "Injector 2 Open Circuit Detected". Those faults were cleared and drove for a few weeks with the same smoke coming out, another diagnostic check did not give those faults?

The mechanic told me the type of smoke looks like it's diesel not burning well...

Any ideas what could be going on? The heaters are bust maybe and the burn on the diesel is not good for the first few seconds until the cylinders warms up?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

1. Replace the injector loom
2. make sure the glowplug relay is working and if yes replace the glow plugs(or at least the non-working ones)
 
Agreed, seems like it's the glow plugs which could be the most likely culprit. Why would in the loom need to be changed though?
 
Thor1950 said:
Diesel is diesel they need to warm up a bit before driven when cold. Mine I let idle for 10 minutes when it is cold and 4-5 in summer first time of day. Once it is to operating temps is smooth as silk. :p
Click to expand...

how many plugs has a td5:D
 
Forget the glow plugs,unless its minus 20 they should make little difference.They are there more to keep emissions down during warm up than to assist starting.
I hate to sound negative,but it sounds more like a compression issue,if it came to my workshop the first thing that would happen is an electronic compression test using a current clamp on the battery lead.This is connected to a laptop run oscilloscope,measuring the current spikes of the 5 cylinders as the starter forces them over the compression stroke.
VERY accurate,quick and requires no dismantling other than removing the fuel pump fuse to stop it from firing up.
If your engine is down on compression on one or more cylinders they will white smoke as combustion is incomplete on cold cylinders.After a few seconds they will warm enough to fire reasonably well and the smoke stops.The engine ecu is also VERY good at compensating for the poor cylinders lack of effort and will do a darn good job of covering it up
Bent conrods are the usual suspects....
I hope this isn't the case with your engine,but because the test is so easy with the right kit,it has to be worth doing before tearing injectors out etc.I have done loads of these for other garages where they have spent hundreds on exchange injectors with no benefit.Unless you have 5 good compressions its never going to make good power or stop smoking from cold.One last point,the cylinder balancing readouts from TD5 are not always a reliable guide,like say TD4/6 Bosch versions.
 
eightinavee said:
Forget the glow plugs,unless its minus 20 they should make little difference.They are there more to keep emissions down during warm up than to assist starting.
Click to expand...

i dont contradict you, you are contradicted by the book:rolleyes:
ENGINE MANAGEMENT SYSTEM - TD5 - DESCRIPTION AND OPERATION 18-1-31 said:
The 4 glow plugs are located in the engine block on the inlet side, in cylinder 1 to 4. Cylinder 5 has no glow plug. The
glow plugs are a vital part of the engine starting strategy
The purpose of the glow plugs is:
l Assist cold engine start.
l Reduce exhaust emissions at low engine load/speed. (why did they put it in this order a.n)
The main part of the glow plug is a tubular heating element that protrudes into the combustion chamber of the engine.
The heating element contains a spiral filament that is encased in magnesium oxide powder. At the tip of the tubular
heating element is the heater coil. Behind the heater coil and connected in series is a control coil. The control coil
regulates the heater coil to ensure that it does not overheat and cause a possible failure. The glow plug circuit has its
own control relay located in the engine compartment fuse box.
Pre-heat is the length of time the glow plugs operate prior to engine cranking. The ECM controls the pre-heat time of
the glow plugs based on battery voltage and coolant temperature information via the glow plug relay.
Post-heat is the length of time the glow plugs operate after the engine starts. The ECM controls the post-heat time
based on ECT information. If the ECT fails the ECM will operate pre/post-heat time strategies with default values from
its memory. The engine will be difficult to start.
.................
The glow plugs can fail in the following ways:
l Heater coil open circuit.
l Control coil open circuit.
l Poor earth quality.
l Short circuit to vehicle supply.
l Short circuit to vehicle earth.
l Wiring loom fault.
l Relay windings open circuit.
l Incorrect relay fitted.
In the event of a glow plug failure any of the following symptoms may be observed:
l Difficult starting.
l Excessive smoke emissions after engine start.
Click to expand...

when mine were replaced(3 out of 4 were shot) it started and ran noticeably better...and it was late autumn(temps above +2*C)

that doesn't mean you are not right in the rest of your explanation
 
Last edited:
I'm sorry I'm recovering from a nasty bout of bronchitis so my attention span is poor at the moment,I cant be bothered to argue with you,LR often make statements in technical notes which are more about PR than practical fact.For instance stating that TDI/TD5 heads cannot be refaced nor TD5 cranks reground....
The point is a couple of glow plugs are not going to cure his white smoke or ALL TD5's would smoke from the rear cylinder on cold start.
Any decent workshop should have a scope in their array of diagnostic tools,and should not charge a large sum to do the compression test.
My experience of TD5 engines is based on diagnosing/repairing literally hundreds of them - so I promise all that I has said is based on real experience,not just copying/pasting LR documents that follow the factory line
 
i didnt want to argue, if it seemed so i'm sorry, also i dont have experience in fixing Td5 engines, i just know some engineering stuff which i've learned in 6 years of hard study and i observed and tested many things on my own and some friend's cars out of hobby, that's all... never underestimate an impassioned amateur:eek:... my reaction was more against the statement to "Forget the glow plugs, unless its minus 20 they should make little difference" which seems exagerated and as english is my third language i better quote from the official book(which i dont claim it beats the experience) than explain myself. As i said and that's a fact my car started and ran much better with new glow plugs at above +2*C, also on the minus 20* logic they could have made some cheaper Td5s without any glow plugs for the tropical/ecuatorial even for the UK market(if we check a average winter temp chart on the web):D , also i dont think that if you live in UK you had too many Td5 to fix at below 10*C when if only 2 or 3 glow plugs are shot it will be a pain to start, blow white smoke and run/knock like sh*t up to 1 minute(and i know that as here are often between -10 and -25 in winter)

dont take it personally please i'd like to consider this a friendly polemic which will bring some light on the matter for everybody anyway

i know how to measure compression myself with clamp A-meter and oscilloscope and i agree that it's one of the best ways to diagnose these things, and not only, it should be a must in all ocassions when a car gets to a repair shop at least to have an ideea about it for the future, no doubt about that

again, sorry if i offended you
 
eightinavee said:
I'm sorry I'm recovering from a nasty bout of bronchitis so my attention span is poor at the moment,I cant be bothered to argue with you,LR often make statements in technical notes which are more about PR than practical fact.For instance stating that TDI/TD5 heads cannot be refaced nor TD5 cranks reground....
The point is a couple of glow plugs are not going to cure his white smoke or ALL TD5's would smoke from the rear cylinder on cold start.
Any decent workshop should have a scope in their array of diagnostic tools,and should not charge a large sum to do the compression test.
My experience of TD5 engines is based on diagnosing/repairing literally hundreds of them - so I promise all that I has said is based on real experience,not just copying/pasting LR documents that follow the factory line
Click to expand...


Hope you get feeling better soon. But your advice on glow plugs goes against everything that is in print, and what the manufactures say. So i guess people like Bosch are full of **** and you are correct:rolleyes:
 
Thor1950 said:
Hope you get feeling better soon. But your advice on glow plugs goes against everything that is in print, and what the manufactures say. So i guess people like Bosch are full of **** and you are correct:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

The problem is, letting your car sit and idle is the slowest way to bring it up to operating temperature because it’s generally sitting in your drive at just above idle speed, and this method to warm up also invites other problems.
 
Dippypud said:
The problem is, letting your car sit and idle is the slowest way to bring it up to operating temperature because it’s generally sitting in your drive at just above idle speed, and this method to warm up also invites other problems.
Click to expand...

really not what manfacture says, need to let things get to temp first, eggspecially a auto trans. And all the semi trucks with a several hundred thousand to a million miles got it all wrong.got over 202k on mine and now issues, everything is still original on the motor, trans, and drive line. same head gaskets also:D
 
Thor1950 said:
really not what manfacture says, need to let things get to temp first, eggspecially a auto trans. And all the semi trucks with a several hundred thousand to a million miles got it all wrong.got over 202k on mine and now issues, everything is still original on the motor, trans, and drive line. same head gaskets also:D
Click to expand...

Yeah right ... :rolleyes:



TD5 :crazy: :mooning::behindsofa:
 
Thor1950 said:
really not what manfacture says, need to let things get to temp first, eggspecially a auto trans. And all the semi trucks with a several hundred thousand to a million miles got it all wrong.got over 202k on mine and now issues, everything is still original on the motor, trans, and drive line. same head gaskets also:D
Click to expand...

Tis different over here,

it rarely gets that cold, even for glow plugs to make a difference...

takes longer for the 5pot to warm up anyways -

More likely to be the air inlet temperature sensor (T116)

If the sensor is not operating correctly poor EGR and smoke control could result. :cool:
 
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