Which Jack for a Defender?

Ok this is a really daft question but Im sick to the back teeth of my
2T jack thats not tall enough.

At the moment I have to use a jack and block of wood - which aint
great!

Im only a DIY landy bod, not a propwer mechanic so dont want to spend
shed loads of £££'s. Any suggestions for a jack that doesnt need an
wooden extender block please!!


Thanks
Jon

On 26/05/2006 09:11, Jon wrote:
> Ok this is a really daft question but Im sick to the back teeth of my
> 2T jack thats not tall enough.
>
> At the moment I have to use a jack and block of wood - which aint
> great!
>
> Im only a DIY landy bod, not a propwer mechanic so dont want to spend
> shed loads of £££'s. Any suggestions for a jack that doesnt need an
> wooden extender block please!!
>
>
> Thanks
> Jon

Ive used a trolly jack and half a railway sleeper for years.... Its even
got little dents in it now so the jack doesnt move!


--
Mark
90 90 200tdi - Ditched
87 RR V8 EFI - Sorn'd

http://www.mozilla.com/firefox/ - Firefox Rules!
http://fireftp.mozdev.org/ - FTP Plugin for Firefox

Jon came up with the following;:
> Ok this is a really daft question but Im sick to the back teeth of my
> 2T jack thats not tall enough.
>
> At the moment I have to use a jack and block of wood - which aint
> great!
>
> Im only a DIY landy bod, not a propwer mechanic so dont want to spend
> shed loads of £££'s. Any suggestions for a jack that doesnt need an
> wooden extender block please!!

Same as Mark S. Halfords often have a 2 ton jack on offer with axle stands
for £20 ish .. I've had one for about 5 years now and can't find any real
faults with it.

I would prefer to use a larger one if I were using it every day in a
workshop situation, but as an occasional weekend thing and for roadside
emergencies it's great. We have a Hi-lift too, but have only used that
off-roading ..

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!

On Fri, 26 May 2006 09:11:33 +0100, Jon wrote:

> Any suggestions for a jack that doesnt need an wooden extender block
> please!!

I'd have thought any of the suitably rated trolley jacks would do,
provided you are jacking on the suspension not the body... Far more
stable than a bottle jack, assuming that is what you have.

A selection:

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=020110274
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=020110273
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=020110275
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=020110295

Bung "jack" into the search box for even more, depending on your
definition of "shed loads of £££'s".

--
Cheers [email protected]
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

In message <[email protected]>
Mark Solesbury <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 26/05/2006 09:11, Jon wrote:
> > Ok this is a really daft question but Im sick to the back teeth of my
> > 2T jack thats not tall enough.
> >
> > At the moment I have to use a jack and block of wood - which aint
> > great!
> >
> > Im only a DIY landy bod, not a propwer mechanic so dont want to spend
> > shed loads of £££'s. Any suggestions for a jack that doesnt need an
> > wooden extender block please!!
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> > Jon
>
> Ive used a trolly jack and half a railway sleeper for years.... Its even
> got little dents in it now so the jack doesnt move!
>
>

We use a 2T trolley jack from ScrewFix (about 10 years old) - it's
fine. I suppose different makes have different reaches.....

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
RISC-OS - Where have all the good guys gone?
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay

Ooops. forgot to say it is a trolly jack... just a small reaching 2T
one.

My block of wood has lots of marks in it too.

I'll have a look at some of the links provided.

Thanks guys.

Jon


On Fri, 26 May 2006 09:11:33 +0100, Jon <[email protected]> wrote:

>Ok this is a really daft question but Im sick to the back teeth of my
>2T jack thats not tall enough.
>
>At the moment I have to use a jack and block of wood - which aint
>great!
>
>Im only a DIY landy bod, not a propwer mechanic so dont want to spend
>shed loads of £££'s. Any suggestions for a jack that doesnt need an
>wooden extender block please!!
>
>
>Thanks
>Jon

On 2006-05-26, Jon <[email protected]> wrote:

> Ok this is a really daft question but Im sick to the back teeth of my
> 2T jack thats not tall enough.

Tool sites are awash with cheap jacks that can handle the Defender.
For about 5 years now I've had a Halfords 3-tonne long-reach jack that
cost me less than £40 IIRC, it's been fine although the Pinzgauer
stretches it, it's finally topped out for the first time at the end of
its travel but managed to get the front wheels about 1cm off the
ground when jacking off the bottom of the differential. It can get
the Defender a good 20cm off the ground.

A good type of jack to get just for wheel changing is a bottle-jack
with a curved bar of metal on top that fits around the axle of the
landy, I've got one of these and it makes lifting wheels a breeze, and
safer than a high-lift. They do cost though, up to £60 for a good
one! On a dark, stormy night on the M6 with the truck being rocked by
passing lorries, I'd have killed for one.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

On or around Fri, 26 May 2006 09:11:33 +0100, Jon <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>Ok this is a really daft question but Im sick to the back teeth of my
>2T jack thats not tall enough.
>
>At the moment I have to use a jack and block of wood - which aint
>great!
>
>Im only a DIY landy bod, not a propwer mechanic so dont want to spend
>shed loads of £££'s. Any suggestions for a jack that doesnt need an
>wooden extender block please!!

high lift trolley jack, I'd go for, like

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=020110311&r=2047&g=107

for example, for normal purposes, or a jackall/hi-lift for off-roading, such
as

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=020110800&r=2047&g=107

The latter, although very good at lifting, is utter crap at stability - you
don't even want to be beside the vehicle, far less underneath. Of course,
you shouldn't be underneath with *any* jack without a secondary support such
as a stand or blocks or something, but if you have to, a good trolley jack
is as good as anything.

I'm not in favour of the cheap "diy" ones.

if you're on a budget, this looks quite like the one I have here:

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=020110280&r=2047&g=107

which is not so high lifting but cheaper.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Where they make a desert they call it peace" Tacitus (c.55 - c.117)
Agricola, 30

"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On or around Fri, 26 May 2006 09:11:33 +0100, Jon <[email protected]>
> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>Ok this is a really daft question but Im sick to the back teeth of my
>>2T jack thats not tall enough.
>>
>>At the moment I have to use a jack and block of wood - which aint
>>great!
>>
>>Im only a DIY landy bod, not a propwer mechanic so dont want to spend
>>shed loads of £££'s. Any suggestions for a jack that doesnt need an
>>wooden extender block please!!
>
> high lift trolley jack, I'd go for, like
>
> http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=020110311&r=2047&g=107
>
> for example, for normal purposes, or a jackall/hi-lift for off-roading,
> such
> as
>
> http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=020110800&r=2047&g=107
>
> The latter, although very good at lifting, is utter crap at stability -
> you
> don't even want to be beside the vehicle, far less underneath. Of course,
> you shouldn't be underneath with *any* jack without a secondary support
> such
> as a stand or blocks or something, but if you have to, a good trolley jack
> is as good as anything.
>
> I'm not in favour of the cheap "diy" ones.
>
> if you're on a budget, this looks quite like the one I have here:
>
> http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=020110280&r=2047&g=107
>
> which is not so high lifting but cheaper.
> --
> Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
> "Where they make a desert they call it peace" Tacitus (c.55 - c.117)
> Agricola, 30

I'll go with Austin and add
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=020110275 which is perfectly
adequate I've used mine on Rangie and now on the Disco but get decent set of
axle stands what ever you buy before you work underneath
one other thing if you buy one similar the silly carrying handle is a booby
trap and liable to drop the jack on your foot if you are not vigilent.
For roadside wheel changes put the other bottle jack away for other uses
and buy a bigger truck bottle I use a 6 ton which has an adjustment ram
screw to allow you to get the offload height up to the jacking point before
you pump the jack up similar to
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=020110221 it physically a lot
bigger than a two tonne and more stable a metal plate to stand it on is a
good idea for uneven or softer ground or keep your thick block .
Derek
Disco 200 Tdi

In message <[email protected]>
Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote:

> On or around Fri, 26 May 2006 09:11:33 +0100, Jon <[email protected]>
> enlightened us thusly:
>
> >Ok this is a really daft question but Im sick to the back teeth of my
> >2T jack thats not tall enough.
> >
> >At the moment I have to use a jack and block of wood - which aint
> >great!
> >
> >Im only a DIY landy bod, not a propwer mechanic so dont want to spend
> >shed loads of £££'s. Any suggestions for a jack that doesnt need an
> >wooden extender block please!!
>
> high lift trolley jack, I'd go for, like
>
> http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=020110311&r=2047&g=107
>
> for example, for normal purposes, or a jackall/hi-lift for off-roading, such
> as
>
> http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=020110800&r=2047&g=107
>

*How Much!!!!!!* - and that's a Jackall - which don't work properly....
we can do proper Hi Lift's for £55.50 inc VAT & delivery! Or 5ft ones
for £59.17 inc VAT & delivery.

> The latter, although very good at lifting, is utter crap at stability - you
> don't even want to be beside the vehicle, far less underneath. Of course,
> you shouldn't be underneath with *any* jack without a secondary support such
> as a stand or blocks or something, but if you have to, a good trolley jack
> is as good as anything.
>
> I'm not in favour of the cheap "diy" ones.
>
> if you're on a budget, this looks quite like the one I have here:
>
> http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=020110280&r=2047&g=107
>
> which is not so high lifting but cheaper.

Sealy, Machinemart, etc etc all seem to be the same with different
labels these days.


Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
RISC-OS - Where have all the good guys gone?
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay

On Fri, 26 May 2006 14:06:57 +0100, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On or around Fri, 26 May 2006 09:11:33 +0100, Jon <[email protected]>
>enlightened us thusly:
>
>>Ok this is a really daft question but Im sick to the back teeth of my
>>2T jack thats not tall enough.
>>
>>At the moment I have to use a jack and block of wood - which aint
>>great!
>>
>>Im only a DIY landy bod, not a propwer mechanic so dont want to spend
>>shed loads of £££'s. Any suggestions for a jack that doesnt need an
>>wooden extender block please!!
>
>high lift trolley jack, I'd go for, like
>
>http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=020110311&r=2047&g=107
>
>for example, for normal purposes, or a jackall/hi-lift for off-roading, such
>as

I like the look of this as the height is much better than my
existing...

I guess if a jobs worth doing, its worth doing right so time to start
saving!! Still its cheaper than some Ive seen elsewhere.

Think I'll get myself a couple more decent axle stands whilst Im on
with it. Then I can get all corners in the air at once.

>
>http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=020110800&r=2047&g=107
>
Already got the genuine 4ft Hi-Lft for those just in case times when
out playing...

>The latter, although very good at lifting, is utter crap at stability - you
>don't even want to be beside the vehicle, far less underneath. Of course,
>you shouldn't be underneath with *any* jack without a secondary support such
>as a stand or blocks or something, but if you have to, a good trolley jack
>is as good as anything.
>
>I'm not in favour of the cheap "diy" ones.
>
>if you're on a budget, this looks quite like the one I have here:
>
>http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=020110280&r=2047&g=107
>
>which is not so high lifting but cheaper.

"beamendsltd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:b1461e2d4e%[email protected]...
> In message <[email protected]>
> Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On or around Fri, 26 May 2006 09:11:33 +0100, Jon <[email protected]>
>> enlightened us thusly:
>>
>> >Ok this is a really daft question but Im sick to the back teeth of my
>> >2T jack thats not tall enough.
>> >
>> >At the moment I have to use a jack and block of wood - which aint
>> >great!
>> >
>> >Im only a DIY landy bod, not a propwer mechanic so dont want to spend
>> >shed loads of £££'s. Any suggestions for a jack that doesnt need an
>> >wooden extender block please!!
>>
>> high lift trolley jack, I'd go for, like
>>
>> http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=020110311&r=2047&g=107
>>
>> for example, for normal purposes, or a jackall/hi-lift for off-roading,
>> such
>> as
>>
>> http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=020110800&r=2047&g=107
>>
>
> *How Much!!!!!!* - and that's a Jackall - which don't work properly....
> we can do proper Hi Lift's for £55.50 inc VAT & delivery! Or 5ft ones
> for £59.17 inc VAT & delivery.
>
>> The latter, although very good at lifting, is utter crap at stability -
>> you
>> don't even want to be beside the vehicle, far less underneath. Of
>> course,
>> you shouldn't be underneath with *any* jack without a secondary support
>> such
>> as a stand or blocks or something, but if you have to, a good trolley
>> jack
>> is as good as anything.
>>
>> I'm not in favour of the cheap "diy" ones.
>>
>> if you're on a budget, this looks quite like the one I have here:
>>
>> http://www.machinemart.co.uk/product.asp?p=020110280&r=2047&g=107
>>
>> which is not so high lifting but cheaper.
>
> Sealy, Machinemart, etc etc all seem to be the same with different
> labels these days.
>
>
> Richard
> --
> www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
> RISC-OS - Where have all the good guys gone?
> Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay
I 've had a few tools with stick on labels and like you say they seem to be
all from the same manufacturer s
http://www.chenhetrading.com/ourproducts1.php?sort1=21&sort2=50
this would look to be one makes you wonder why we pay a premium for a brand
when the same bloke is knocking them out on a bench somewhere in china.
Derek

On 2006-05-26, Jon <[email protected]> wrote:

> Think I'll get myself a couple more decent axle stands whilst Im on
> with it. Then I can get all corners in the air at once.

Hmm, personally I'd avoid four axle stands lifting the vehicle up,
instead go for four wheel ramps, and put two with the slanted part of
the ramp towards the rear of the vehicle, and the other two with the
slanted part towards the front. With axle stands, if you bash the
vehicle hard enough or grab it to pull yourself out from under it, it
can topple off all four at once. Ramps can topple in one direction if
they are all facing the same way (but still much more stable) but with
them pointing in opposite directions then it's not going anywhere.

I've got some long-reach truck axle-stands, four tonnes tested each.
They have wide bases and often don't need to be raised from their
lowest setting to be used. I point the apexes of the bases in
different directions too to make sure it's not unstable in one
direction, as it would be if they all pointed in the same direction.

Err, yes I am paranoid about being crushed by a vehicle ;-)

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

Ian Rawlings wrote:

|| Hmm, personally I'd avoid four axle stands lifting the vehicle up,
|| instead go for four wheel ramps, and put two with the slanted part of
|| the ramp towards the rear of the vehicle, and the other two with the
|| slanted part towards the front. With axle stands, if you bash the
|| vehicle hard enough or grab it to pull yourself out from under it, it
|| can topple off all four at once. Ramps can topple in one direction
|| if they are all facing the same way (but still much more stable) but
|| with them pointing in opposite directions then it's not going
|| anywhere.
||
|| I've got some long-reach truck axle-stands, four tonnes tested each.
|| They have wide bases and often don't need to be raised from their
|| lowest setting to be used. I point the apexes of the bases in
|| different directions too to make sure it's not unstable in one
|| direction, as it would be if they all pointed in the same direction.
||
|| Err, yes I am paranoid about being crushed by a vehicle ;-)

Just done a four-day First Aid course for work and learned about crush
injuries - real eye-opener for me. If someone is crushed underneath a car
or whatever, if you can lift the car and get them out straight away, do so.
However, if they have been in the crush situation for over 10 minutes, doing
that might be fatal. Apparently toxins can rapidly develop in the crush
area and if the weight is removed these will be released to travel round the
body and can make the casualty much worse. In these circs, wait for
paramedics/ambulance.

I didn't know this, and I imagine not many do. My first reaction would be
to get the weight off the casualty at all costs. Just a thort while on the
subject.

Good advice on the ramps and stands, which I have mentally logged and will
use next time I am going underneath.

--
Rich
==============================

I don't approve of signatures, so I don't have one.

Ian Hi,

You can always find a secondhand one off a Discovery or RaRo Classic.

Remember the axles are the same on Defenders, Disco 1 and RaRo Classics and
the hydraulic lift provided with the later two types of Landies is
excellent.

Take care
Pantelis

P.S. remember to also take the two long metallic handles for operating the
jack.


"Ian Rawlings" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2006-05-26, Jon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Ok this is a really daft question but Im sick to the back teeth of my
> > 2T jack thats not tall enough.
>
> Tool sites are awash with cheap jacks that can handle the Defender.
> For about 5 years now I've had a Halfords 3-tonne long-reach jack that
> cost me less than £40 IIRC, it's been fine although the Pinzgauer
> stretches it, it's finally topped out for the first time at the end of
> its travel but managed to get the front wheels about 1cm off the
> ground when jacking off the bottom of the differential. It can get
> the Defender a good 20cm off the ground.
>
> A good type of jack to get just for wheel changing is a bottle-jack
> with a curved bar of metal on top that fits around the axle of the
> landy, I've got one of these and it makes lifting wheels a breeze, and
> safer than a high-lift. They do cost though, up to £60 for a good
> one! On a dark, stormy night on the M6 with the truck being rocked by
> passing lorries, I'd have killed for one.
>
> --
> Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

On 2006-05-27, Pantelis Giamarellos <[email protected]> wrote:

> Ian Hi,
>
> You can always find a secondhand one off a Discovery or RaRo Classic.

Indeed, although I'm always hesitant to use a second-hand one, I have
one at the moment but it sinks slowly rather than holding the weight
so always has to be used with axle stands. That's OK for use in the
garage, but a PITA when just quickly changing a tyre.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

On or around Fri, 26 May 2006 18:17:46 +0100, "Richard Brookman"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>Just done a four-day First Aid course for work and learned about crush
>injuries - real eye-opener for me. If someone is crushed underneath a car
>or whatever, if you can lift the car and get them out straight away, do so.
>However, if they have been in the crush situation for over 10 minutes, doing
>that might be fatal. Apparently toxins can rapidly develop in the crush
>area and if the weight is removed these will be released to travel round the
>body and can make the casualty much worse. In these circs, wait for
>paramedics/ambulance.
>
>I didn't know this, and I imagine not many do. My first reaction would be
>to get the weight off the casualty at all costs. Just a thort while on the
>subject.

WTF do the paramdeics do with the toxins, then?

it depends on the situation, though, I'd have thought. It might be that
waiting is just as fatal - depends on the extant and type of injuries. The
only vehicle that ever fell on me just bruised me a bit, so I guess I was
lucky.

meanwhile, before I go under a vehicle on stands I give it a good shake to
make sure it *won't* fall over when I grab it or heave on a nut underneath.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"The breezy call of incense-breathing Morn, The swallow twittering
from the strawbuilt shed, The cock's shrill clarion, or the echoing
horn, No more shall rouse them from their lowly bed."
Thomas Gray, Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard.

Austin Shackles wrote:

|| On or around Fri, 26 May 2006 18:17:46 +0100, "Richard Brookman"
|| <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
||
||| Just done a four-day First Aid course for work and learned about
||| crush injuries - real eye-opener for me. If someone is crushed
||| underneath a car or whatever, if you can lift the car and get them
||| out straight away, do so. However, if they have been in the crush
||| situation for over 10 minutes, doing that might be fatal.
||| Apparently toxins can rapidly develop in the crush area and if the
||| weight is removed these will be released to travel round the body
||| and can make the casualty much worse. In these circs, wait for
||| paramedics/ambulance.
|||
||| I didn't know this, and I imagine not many do. My first reaction
||| would be to get the weight off the casualty at all costs. Just a
||| thort while on the subject.
||
|| WTF do the paramdeics do with the toxins, then?

Dunno, but a lot more than you or I could! Seriously, I think it would
involve a lot of backup and facilities for blood transfusions and all sorts
before a quick dash to A&E and a spell in IC. The point is that the obvious
thing (to remove the weight from the casualty) may well result in the death
of said casualty unless expert medical advice is available. I thought it
worth mentioning because (to me at least) it is totally counter-intuitive.

|| it depends on the situation, though, I'd have thought. It might be
|| that waiting is just as fatal - depends on the extant and type of
|| injuries.

If the crushing weight is constant, the toxins are held in the injured area
and not released into the bloodstream. The casualty can survive for long
periods like this. It's the releasing of the crush that is the major risk -
after, as I said, 10 or so minutes.

|| meanwhile, before I go under a vehicle on stands I give it a good
|| shake to make sure it *won't* fall over when I grab it or heave on a
|| nut underneath.

Me too, especially if there are others around who might want to lean on the
vehicle and have a smoke and a chat.

--
Rich
==============================

I don't approve of signatures, so I don't have one.

On or around Mon, 29 May 2006 09:55:14 +0100, "Richard Brookman"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>Austin Shackles wrote:
>
>|| On or around Fri, 26 May 2006 18:17:46 +0100, "Richard Brookman"
>|| <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>||
>||| Just done a four-day First Aid course for work and learned about
>||| crush injuries - real eye-opener for me. If someone is crushed
>||| underneath a car or whatever, if you can lift the car and get them
>||| out straight away, do so. However, if they have been in the crush
>||| situation for over 10 minutes, doing that might be fatal.
>||| Apparently toxins can rapidly develop in the crush area and if the
>||| weight is removed these will be released to travel round the body
>||| and can make the casualty much worse. In these circs, wait for
>||| paramedics/ambulance.
>|||
>||| I didn't know this, and I imagine not many do. My first reaction
>||| would be to get the weight off the casualty at all costs. Just a
>||| thort while on the subject.
>||
>|| WTF do the paramdeics do with the toxins, then?
>
>Dunno, but a lot more than you or I could! Seriously, I think it would
>involve a lot of backup and facilities for blood transfusions and all sorts
>before a quick dash to A&E and a spell in IC. The point is that the obvious
>thing (to remove the weight from the casualty) may well result in the death
>of said casualty unless expert medical advice is available. I thought it
>worth mentioning because (to me at least) it is totally counter-intuitive.

quite agree, and a good point. There must be a judgment call though - for
example, you could get internal injuries that would gradually kill you
irrespective of toxins. I guess if the victim remains conscious and
breathing then leaving them well alone would be favourite.

It's like the one about motorcyclists and helmets. You run the risk of
causing (more) spinal injury by removing a modern bike helmet and as such
it's better if the paramedics do it. However if the chap's unconscious and
not breathing, he's got about 4 minutes... under which circumstances the
only thing you can realistically do is remove the helmet as carefully as
possible so as to be able to resuscitate.

>If the crushing weight is constant, the toxins are held in the injured area
>and not released into the bloodstream. The casualty can survive for long
>periods like this. It's the releasing of the crush that is the major risk -
>after, as I said, 10 or so minutes.

yeah, good and useful info.

this is part of the problem with becoming a first aider, I reckon. That and
the fact that these days if you do it wrong you're liable to get sued.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"It is a characteristic of the human mind to hate the man one has injured"
Tacitus (c.55 - c.117) Agricola, 45

Austin Shackles wrote:

|| It's like the one about motorcyclists and helmets. You run the risk
|| of causing (more) spinal injury by removing a modern bike helmet and
|| as such it's better if the paramedics do it. However if the chap's
|| unconscious and not breathing, he's got about 4 minutes... under
|| which circumstances the only thing you can realistically do is
|| remove the helmet as carefully as possible so as to be able to
|| resuscitate.

Advice is that if the casualty isn't breathing, you remove the helmet in any
case. If he ain't breathing, he's gonna die or suffer serious brain damage
whatever. There are ways of removing the helmet (involving another person)
that will mkinimise the possibility of spinal damage, however.

--
Rich
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