What have you done to your Freelander today

htr said:

So basically I'd drain all existing coolant out. OK - rad' is easy, expansion tank easy, heater matrix, IRD cooler plus associated plumbing easy, but the block is a tricky bit. I guess I'd use an air line and blow as much as possible out, Then reassemble and fill with the Evans Power Cool Prep Fluid, drain and refill with the Evans Waterless Coolant

Click to expand...

You got it. An air line is the best way to clear out most of the water. Then put in the special, reusable pre-treatment and run. Then drain it out and fill with the new, non water coolant.
I'm seriously thinking about using the stuff in my MGF.

You seen the cost of this idea?

htr said:

You seen the cost of this idea?

Click to expand...

Yes I have. Although as the stuff lasts indefinitely, it will save a few bucks over time. It can even be drained and saved prior to major works. Providing it doesn't spill all over the floor, that is.
Additionally the life of the hoses and coolant bottle will be increased, due to the minimal pressure the coolant runs at.
It also doesn't corrode the ferrous metals like water based coolant, which can only be a good thing.

Nodge68 said:

Yes I have. Although as the stuff lasts indefinitely, it will save a few bucks over time. It can even be drained and saved prior to major works. Providing it doesn't spill all over the floor, that is.
Additionally the life of the hoses and coolant bottle will be increased, due to the minimal pressure the coolant runs at.
It also doesn't corrode the ferrous metals like water based coolant, which can only be a good thing.

Click to expand...

You could maybe add less likelyhood of heater matrix failure into that - which is a right pain.

I would simply replace the expansion system bottle with a metal one..... seems too much like pie in the sky dreaming with no benefit at all for an engine that was totally inadequate for the purpose in the first place...

Or,. buy an L series. haha

Most of the time - the K series so called 'issues' come down to a sudden reduction of pressure due to expansion system failures. ! - seriously ??? t- eerrrrr big deal - is it so HARD to fix - err no - I think not... this is not an issue if you replace the expansion tank with a suitable one = possibly metal !. All this talk of 'bionic' fluids seems totally crazy to me. You appear to be trying to fix an issue that is easily fixed using a sledge hammer rather than a small amount of finesse. Matter over mind.....

- sorry - but........

Why not embrace a modern alternative then Joe?. If this stuff doesn't boil, then hot spots in the cooling system can't cause issues. Don't forget that the K series spends most of it's working life at the boiling point of unpressurised water. It doesn't take a genius to work out that a non boiling replacement coolant, can only be a good thing.

Nodge68 said:

Why not embrace a modern alternative then Joe?. If this stuff doesn't boil, then hot spots in the cooling system can't cause issues. Don't forget that the K series spends most of it's working life at the boiling point of unpressurised water. It doesn't take a genius to work out that a non boiling replacement coolant, can only be a good thing.

Click to expand...

90% of all modern water cooled engines run at the same temp. It is the thermostat that keeps them there, not unique to a K engine.

As has been pointed out many times, a K engine in good nick, up to current spec will last just at long as any engine of its age.

BHGs and similar are due to known conditions, not some inherent design problem which has not been addressed.

And if you read the detail on waterless coolants, it is nowhere near as efficient as water as a coolant in an engine designed for water. Waterless coolant is good where you want to deliberately raise the operating temperature of an engine. This won't happen in a K series engine unless you can find a high temperature thermostat - actually I stand corrected, it is highly likely it will cook the engine as it won't be able to transfer enough heat to the radiator.

Tony Reeves said:

90% of all modern water cooled engines run at the same temp. It is the thermostat that keeps them there, not unique to a K engine.

As has been pointed out many times, a K engine in good nick, up to current spec will last just at long as any engine of its age.

BHGs and similar are due to known conditions, not some inherent design problem which has not been addressed.

And if you read the detail on waterless coolants, it is nowhere near as efficient as water as a coolant in an engine designed for water. Waterless coolant is good where you want to deliberately raise the operating temperature of an engine. This won't happen in a K series engine unless you can find a high temperature thermostat - actually I stand corrected, it is highly likely it will cook the engine as it won't be able to transfer enough heat to the radiator.

Click to expand...

Really! I've owned three K series cars and had to change the head gasket in two of them, both of which were just over 100k miles and had HG changed before already. The third had the HG changed once and was probably due to go again anytime.
I've been driving for over 30 years old and new cars and never had to change the HG in any other car.

Quote "actually I stand corrected, it is highly likely it will cook the engine as it won't be able to transfer enough heat to the radiator"
That's an interesting statement, don't suppose you could point us to the research to back it up. I'm not saying your wrong cause I really don't know but before I repeat it I'd like to be certain of the facts.

Pointed out in an earlier post, with a reference to the specification for the waterless coolant, its specific heat is about half that of water, so a given amount of it circulating through the block and the radiator will only transfer 50% of heat that water would. Under "normal" conditions there may be enough over engineering in the cooling system for this to work. Also if the engine temp is higher than the design spec than the radiator will transfer more heat to the air due to the higher temp gradient. But if the K series engine really does have no reserve capability (which I doubt), then you will just see the temp climb over 190C which is the boiling point of the waterless coolant.

And if any of the hot waterless coolant escapes remember it is inflammable with a flash point of 120C.

Alibro said:

Really! I've owned three K series cars and had to change the head gasket in two of them, both of which were just over 100k miles and had HG changed before already. The third had the HG changed once and was probably due to go again anytime.
I've been driving for over 30 years old and new cars and never had to change the HG in any other car.

Click to expand...

I used to own Toyota Supras, the GTE series engines were notorious for BHGs due to an invalid spec for the head bolt tension. Plenty of other examples in the 70's and 80's, mostly sorted by now, just like the K series ones.

Nodge68 said:

Why not embrace a modern alternative then Joe?. If this stuff doesn't boil, then hot spots in the cooling system can't cause issues. Don't forget that the K series spends most of it's working life at the boiling point of unpressurised water. It doesn't take a genius to work out that a non boiling replacement coolant, can only be a good thing.

Click to expand...

Hi Nodge. Almost ALL engines work at those temperatures with generally no issues so I do not see why the K should be different. The pressurised water system has been around for about a century and works superbly, As you know, the reason for pressurisation is to increase the boiling point of water above 100C.
I fail to understand where the specific issues that you refer to on the K actually are ?.If the issue is down to a problem with the design of the cooling system leading to it failing to pressurise and hence boils (due to lack of pressure) then that is the area that needs fixing. If, as you say, there are issues with the expansion tank, then change it for a better quality one. If the water system is being further pressurised by compression leaks from the combustion processes then this is a severe design failure of the engine. Hot spots or not then a working pressurised system would work perfectly well. ALL engines have hot spots - areas of peak temperatures. I fail to see why replacing a perfectly suitable medium - water - with a medium that - afaik, does not have the same thermal transfer capabilities as water can be beneficial. Unless - as you seem to be saying that the K series water loss is the EFFECT of HGF compresssion gasses entering the cooling system - not the CAUSE ???.
Joe

Joe_H said:

Hi Nodge. Almost ALL engines work at those temperatures with generally no issues so I do not see why the K should be different. The pressurised water system has been around for about a century and works superbly, As you know, the reason for pressurisation is to increase the boiling point of water above 100C.
I fail to understand where the specific issues that you refer to on the K actually are ?.If the issue is down to a problem with the design of the cooling system leading to it failing to pressurise and hence boils (due to lack of pressure) then that is the area that needs fixing. If, as you say, there are issues with the expansion tank, then change it for a better quality one. If the water system is being further pressurised by compression leaks from the combustion processes then this is a severe design failure of the engine. Hot spots or not then a working pressurised system would work perfectly well. ALL engines have hot spots - areas of peak temperatures. I fail to see why replacing a perfectly suitable medium - water - with a medium that - afaik, does not have the same thermal transfer capabilities as water can be beneficial. Unless - as you seem to be saying that the K series water loss is the EFFECT of HGF compresssion gasses entering the cooling system - not the CAUSE ???.
Joe

Click to expand...

The design of the K series is poor on several counts.
1) the K series is designed to run hotter than most engines.
2) the poor design of the cooling system includes "hot spots" which cause cavitation - ie superheated water with no cooling.
3) the poor design of the feedback circuitry ends up with monitoring the water temperature coming back from the radiator, rather than the maximimum water temperature. Usually found leaving the engine.
See the threads in the QFAC section which cover it in considerable detail.

The Mad Hat Man said:

The design of the K series is poor on several counts.
1) the K series is designed to run hotter than most engines.
2) the poor design of the cooling system includes "hot spots" which cause cavitation - ie superheated water with no cooling.
3) the poor design of the feedback circuitry ends up with monitoring the water temperature coming back from the radiator, rather than the maximimum water temperature. Usually found leaving the engine.
See the threads in the QFAC section which cover it in considerable detail.

Click to expand...

Hi TMHM
I would not go as far as 'superheated ' water lol - also 'cavitation' is highly unlikely unless there is a considerable pressure drop between two areas of flow. - localised high temperature heating is possible -completely different thing altogether. ie, the localised 'hot spot' causes a sudden temp increase leading to boiling - which the causes a vicious circle - so here - the 'hot spot' is the cause of the localised issue - it is not 'caused by' a flow problem directly. it is simply exacerbated by any potential flow problem.
The engine temp differences to 'most other engines' is surely of no consequence in reality - or indeed - the position of the temperature monitoring.
These issues that you mention may have some basis for speculation and indeed some will have real credence, however the system would not run perfectly well for considerable periods of time between 'failures' without major design problems that are simply - live with - or get rid of. (as seems to be the case)
Again - are you saying that the HG failure causes the fluid boil off - or that the fluid boil off causes the HGF ?
Adding a substitute for water would make no difference if the thermal transfer is poor. - If the thermal transfer was as good as water then some issues may be alleviated.
I do not believe there is anything on the market that will perform as well as the heat transfer of water.
Many of the problems with the K series appear to be that after a HGF the correct remedial action is not taken (probably understandably - by the repairer. for example block face checking and cylinder head face checking. As Tony says, the lack of thermal transfer ability of these so called replacement fluids would certainly lead to a rapid rise in the temperature of the fluid above its working temps and also if the so called 'hot spots' are causing localised temp increases (certainly NOT superheated) then it is likely, in fact almost certain, that the same thing would occur on these 'super fluids' as well - ie, a failure to adequately cool those areas due to an extremely poor thermal transfer - in fact it is likely to still occur.
Increasing pressure on the system and removing the failure problem of the expansion system on these engines is simple - fit a sturdier - preferably metal expansion / filler units and a higher pressure cap - this does not cause the engine to 'run hotter' it causes the water temperature boiling point to increase which is what you are trying to achieve with any 'super fluid' - again, water at higher pressure is a far better medium than a liquid with a higher boiling point but far lower thermal efficiency.
Joe

Believe what you want. It is well documented.

http://www.ewp.rpi.edu/hartford/~ganzs/FW/Project/FW_Project_Report Cavitation.pdf

https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/freelander-1-8-k-series-hgf-more-data.36863/

http://www.wilmink.nl/wilmink/produkt/rover_18k_mls_koppakking.pdf

http://www.myfreelander.co.uk/Engine/kengineprobs4.htm

@Nodge
Hi mate,
Have you ever considered 'o ringing' the liner and head ? - we did that very successfully on troublesome HG engines years back. It is still current today I believe and works well with liners and alloy heads - the o ring is usually copper fitted a groove in the liner and sometimes (rarely also a slight ring cut into the head - although this is usually a small sleeve mod as opposed to 'o ringing'). You can get a custom gasket from various places however most often the 'o ringing' of a liner doesn't need a change of gasket at all. Worth considering....
Joe

I think the liner is already "ringed"

The Mad Hat Man said:

Believe what you want. It is well documented.

http://www.ewp.rpi.edu/hartford/~ganzs/FW/Project/FW_Project_Report Cavitation.pdf

https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/freelander-1-8-k-series-hgf-more-data.36863/

http://www.wilmink.nl/wilmink/produkt/rover_18k_mls_koppakking.pdf

http://www.myfreelander.co.uk/Engine/kengineprobs4.htm

Click to expand...

Visa versa - although there is nothing above that leads me to believe it is cavitation you are seeing - wrong terminology. Cavitation is characterised by erosion and also a large pressure drop. Usually in rotating parts also. I am simply saying the localised spot heating. For cavitation to occur, one needs a rotating source - or a high pressure (force of flow - as opposed to pressurised systems) via a rapidly decreasing pressure zone. - that is Symantecs though. I am not disagreeing there are 'hot spots' - I am disagreeing that they are caused by cavitation.- different thing altogether.
Joe

The Mad Hat Man said:

I think the liner is already "ringed"

Click to expand...

That would be very interesting - do you have any images ?
Joe

http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2/coolant/ewp.htm

http://kengine.dvapower.com/

The Mad Hat Man said:

http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2/coolant/ewp.htm

http://kengine.dvapower.com/

Click to expand...

Hi TMHM, neither of the above describe Cavitation if that is what you are trying to imply ? they imply that localised boiling occurs - but the term cavitation is incorrectly used.
As in -
"
Boiling and cylinder head cavitation


Pitting caused by localised boiling on a car that was driven exclusively on the road. The head had to come off for other reasons and this damage was spotted incidentally.
One potential cause of head gasket failure and an important cause of cavitation in an alloy cylinder head, is coolant boiling. Because the K-series, like any other current series production engine, uses a mechanical water pump to force the coolant around the engine and out through the radiator and back, the coolant is most prone to boiling after the ignition has been switched off; heat continues to dissipate from the still hot combustion chambers, but now has nowhere to escape other than into the now stagnant coolant. What can then happen in a very hot engine is the coolant may actually boil in certain hotspots around the head, despite the high pressure of the coolant system and the 'antifreeze' additives that raise the boiling point of the water comfortably above 100C. When this happens, steam becomes trapped in small pockets, and can corrode or soften the aluminium head and fatigue the head gasket."

The above is a classic example of a complete and utter lack of understanding of 'cavitation' - that is localised heating and absolutely nothing to do with the fore mentioned 'cavitation' - using incorrect terms is quite common when trying to sell 'after-market goodies;
This is getting pointless really - I agree with localised heating but I completely disagree with the use of the term cavitation, it is simply incorrect. There are many technical publications on fluid dynamics that you could look at.
Yes, there is an apparent issue with localised hot spots - but there are on many engines.
I think if you want to further the discussion on this specific issue then it would be better to start a new SPECIFIC thread about incorrect use of techncial terms.
Joe