What Causes Head Gaskets to Go - Is it avoidable?

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What is people's experience. Is it 'abuse' or inevitable on a
particular engine.

The 1.8 Freelander engines are obviously a bit prone to it but the same
engine didn't have problems in the Rover cars so this would indicate
because the Freelander is heavier and the engine is working harder
there is a much greater chance of it going.

I've read posts indicating that revving above 3K when cold is much more
likely to cause it and to let the car warm up for 10 min - a pain on a
20min drive to work and back!

I've also heard changing and checking the coolant regularly and
checking for 'cold' spots on the radiator may spot cooling problems
early and prevent it - but surely I could just watch the coolant guage?

I have a Peugeot 405 TD at 127,000 miles which has this 'known' problem
- just want to know if it's inevitable to 'go' if it's going to 'go'

Also what about replacing the head gasket? I have to do the timing belt
and valve clearances in the next year anyway.....My local mechanic
thinks it's abuse though and this won't help. (it will take quite a bit
of time and effort!).

 
In message <[email protected]>
[email protected] wrote:

> What is people's experience. Is it 'abuse' or inevitable on a
> particular engine.
>

In general terms, some engines are more likely to fail than others,
but beware urban myths about which ones. It's popular for the
Saloon Bar Experts to slag of particular manufactuers, e.g. Rover
& Land Rover, whereas the 3.0L Trooper engine never gets a mention
despite being utterly crap, likewise Mercedes Sprinters which will
crack their heads somewhere around 100,000 miles.

> The 1.8 Freelander engines are obviously a bit prone to it but the same
> engine didn't have problems in the Rover cars so this would indicate
> because the Freelander is heavier and the engine is working harder
> there is a much greater chance of it going.

If you do a google search for this, you'll find plenty of info. It
would seem that there is a consensus that thrashing the Freelander will
lead to trouble, whereas when driven sedately will cause far fewer
problems. As with all Land Rovers, some never give any trouble,
some are an utter pain, for no apparent reason (that the owners will
admit to - it's often amazing what the *real* story is after we've
after we've done a repair, e.g. a 300Tdi Discovery that magincally
melted itself, the ex-owner only admitting afterwards that he'd
driven 20 miles with no water after an acccident had holed the
radiator)

>
> I've read posts indicating that revving above 3K when cold is much more
> likely to cause it and to let the car warm up for 10 min - a pain on a
> 20min drive to work and back!
>

Giving any engine stick until it is warmed up is a Bad Thing, less
so on modern engines though.

> I've also heard changing and checking the coolant regularly and
> checking for 'cold' spots on the radiator may spot cooling problems
> early and prevent it - but surely I could just watch the coolant guage?
>
> I have a Peugeot 405 TD at 127,000 miles which has this 'known' problem
> - just want to know if it's inevitable to 'go' if it's going to 'go'
>

Our LDV van blew its top after a belt failure, and the entire world
told me it would be scrap. Got it skimmed and all is well (lucky though,
I have to admit).

> Also what about replacing the head gasket? I have to do the timing belt
> and valve clearances in the next year anyway.....My local mechanic
> thinks it's abuse though and this won't help. (it will take quite a bit
> of time and effort!).
>

Personaly, I'm of the "if it aint broke, don't fix it" school, but
there's no saying I'm right.....

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay
 
Whilst I have no experience of the K series engine in a freelander or
in a rover, I do know that when its in the Lotus Elise it can blow
tops quicker than it shreds tyres.

I think it is largely irrelevent as to what vehicle that particular
engine is in and more to do with the specific type of head gasket,
block and head construction and coolant levels.

As far as I know the K series problem is related to the volume of
coolant (water) (or lack of it!) in the block. As the "full" volume
is so low, any coolant loss quicly leads to problems because of the
thermal properties and construction of the engine.

So, as Richard says... "If it aint broke, dont fix it" AND make sure
you are always topped up with water - Then all should be OK.

Jon

On 16 Nov 2005 02:56:10 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>What is people's experience. Is it 'abuse' or inevitable on a
>particular engine.
>
>The 1.8 Freelander engines are obviously a bit prone to it but the same
>engine didn't have problems in the Rover cars so this would indicate
>because the Freelander is heavier and the engine is working harder
>there is a much greater chance of it going.
>
>I've read posts indicating that revving above 3K when cold is much more
>likely to cause it and to let the car warm up for 10 min - a pain on a
>20min drive to work and back!
>
>I've also heard changing and checking the coolant regularly and
>checking for 'cold' spots on the radiator may spot cooling problems
>early and prevent it - but surely I could just watch the coolant guage?
>
>I have a Peugeot 405 TD at 127,000 miles which has this 'known' problem
>- just want to know if it's inevitable to 'go' if it's going to 'go'
>
>Also what about replacing the head gasket? I have to do the timing belt
>and valve clearances in the next year anyway.....My local mechanic
>thinks it's abuse though and this won't help. (it will take quite a bit
>of time and effort!).

 
On 2005-11-16, Jon <[email protected]> wrote:

> Whilst I have no experience of the K series engine in a freelander or
> in a rover, I do know that when its in the Lotus Elise it can blow
> tops quicker than it shreds tyres.

There's only one particular variant of the Elise that has that
reputation, it might be the 111s, I can't quite remember. Other than
that they've got a good rep. Elises get slagged off because they're
British (more or less), a strange disease we seem to have in this
country.

--
For every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert
 
Yep, your right Ian.. It the Elise with the K series Engine. Several
variants of it over the last few years, ranginf from 110bhp - 160bhp
(from memory) - Including the 11S. The only reason they have a habbit
of killing heads is the leaks in the pipework that go un-noticed...for
a while!

The best Elise by far is the 190bhp 111R - That uses the Toyota Engine
and is yummy!!

All in all though they are a truly brilliant machine.

Jon

On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 15:25:53 +0000, Ian Rawlings
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On 2005-11-16, Jon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Whilst I have no experience of the K series engine in a freelander or
>> in a rover, I do know that when its in the Lotus Elise it can blow
>> tops quicker than it shreds tyres.
>
>There's only one particular variant of the Elise that has that
>reputation, it might be the 111s, I can't quite remember. Other than
>that they've got a good rep. Elises get slagged off because they're
>British (more or less), a strange disease we seem to have in this
>country.

 
'The 1.8 Freelander engines are obviously a bit prone to it but the same
engine didn't have problems in the Rover cars so this would indicate
because the Freelander is heavier and the engine is working harder
there is a much greater chance of it going.'

Not quite true, the Freelander, Rover MGF and Lotus all use the K series
lump and all had head gasket problems - crap engine

Lee

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> What is people's experience. Is it 'abuse' or inevitable on a
> particular engine.
>
> The 1.8 Freelander engines are obviously a bit prone to it but the same
> engine didn't have problems in the Rover cars so this would indicate
> because the Freelander is heavier and the engine is working harder
> there is a much greater chance of it going.
>
> I've read posts indicating that revving above 3K when cold is much more
> likely to cause it and to let the car warm up for 10 min - a pain on a
> 20min drive to work and back!
>
> I've also heard changing and checking the coolant regularly and
> checking for 'cold' spots on the radiator may spot cooling problems
> early and prevent it - but surely I could just watch the coolant guage?
>
> I have a Peugeot 405 TD at 127,000 miles which has this 'known' problem
> - just want to know if it's inevitable to 'go' if it's going to 'go'
>
> Also what about replacing the head gasket? I have to do the timing belt
> and valve clearances in the next year anyway.....My local mechanic
> thinks it's abuse though and this won't help. (it will take quite a bit
> of time and effort!).
>


 
beamendsltd wrote:

> In general terms, some engines are more likely to fail than others,
> but beware urban myths about which ones. It's popular for the
> Saloon Bar Experts to slag of particular manufactuers, e.g. Rover
> & Land Rover, whereas the 3.0L Trooper engine never gets a mention
> despite being utterly crap, likewise Mercedes Sprinters which will
> crack their heads somewhere around 100,000 miles.
-snip-

Doesn't the above only apply to the 3.0 trooper - the 3.1 being OK? I
thought the problems with the 3.0 were solved by some recalls covering
injectors and another problem?


--
Regards,
Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.dannyscoffee.com (UK advert for my mobile espresso service)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/European online ordering for Malabar
Gold blend)
swap Z for above characters in email address to reply

 
On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 12:46:26 +0000 (UTC), beamendsltd
<[email protected]> wrote:

>> Also what about replacing the head gasket? I have to do the timing belt
>> and valve clearances in the next year anyway.....My local mechanic
>> thinks it's abuse though and this won't help. (it will take quite a bit
>> of time and effort!).
>>
>
>Personaly, I'm of the "if it aint broke, don't fix it" school, but
>there's no saying I'm right.....

My experience of the pug engines says the same. The ones in the old
504 and the later ax were all wet liners with paper gaskets at the
bottom. If you disturbed the seal there when easing the head off then
the chance of sealing it again is negligible. I think some engines
(504 pug) were well worth taking the rockers off and re torquing
(stretch bolts too).

AJH
 
In message <[email protected]>
Danny <[email protected]> wrote:

> beamendsltd wrote:
>
> > In general terms, some engines are more likely to fail than others,
> > but beware urban myths about which ones. It's popular for the
> > Saloon Bar Experts to slag of particular manufactuers, e.g. Rover
> > & Land Rover, whereas the 3.0L Trooper engine never gets a mention
> > despite being utterly crap, likewise Mercedes Sprinters which will
> > crack their heads somewhere around 100,000 miles.
> -snip-
>
> Doesn't the above only apply to the 3.0 trooper - the 3.1 being OK? I
> thought the problems with the 3.0 were solved by some recalls covering
> injectors and another problem?
>
>

It would seen the 3.1 is a fix for the 3.0's problems. 3.1's seem
fine.

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay
 
AJH <[email protected]> wrote in news:ju3nn11ofg4babj4p24k84jpvquaer96rn@
4ax.com:

> On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 12:46:26 +0000 (UTC), beamendsltd
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> Also what about replacing the head gasket? I have to do the timing belt
>>> and valve clearances in the next year anyway.....My local mechanic
>>> thinks it's abuse though and this won't help. (it will take quite a bit
>>> of time and effort!).
>>>
>>
>>Personaly, I'm of the "if it aint broke, don't fix it" school, but
>>there's no saying I'm right.....
>
> My experience of the pug engines says the same. The ones in the old
> 504 and the later ax were all wet liners with paper gaskets at the
> bottom. If you disturbed the seal there when easing the head off then
> the chance of sealing it again is negligible. I think some engines
> (504 pug) were well worth taking the rockers off and re torquing
> (stretch bolts too).
>
> AJH
>

If ever I took the head off a 504, I'd replace the bolts. That was a common
failure as the bolts would stretch and not take a torque. I don't think
there was anything wrong with the 504 engine if it was treated properly,
but it was a bit exacting it what it considered "proper"!

I took the matter up with Peugeot and it may have been coincidental that
soon after they only supplied head gaskets with a new set of bolts.

Derry
 
So what should I do... here's what i think...

Refill coolant now - with new and a known amount of antifreeze (and
distilled water) , also find out if a 'header' is needed when filling
to prevent air bubbles (which may relate to the pug 405 TD engine)

Do a compression test now (would like to do this anyway - I dont expect
it to show up problems)

When I do valve clearances/timing belt check the torque of the engine
bolts - should I undo then re-do them to check they are moving OK, or
just chack the max torque (or torque + angle?) Should I put new bolts
in? I'll also consider putting a new gasket in - probably not much more
work from this point.

Finally there is a simple adjustment I can make to up the power by
upping the boost- maybe from 0.6 to 1 bar - will these measures be
enough (definately new gasket and bolts?) to hold it together for
another 100K miles?

 
whats with the distilled water???? and if your worried about blowing head gaskets the last this you should be doing is upping the the boost by 66%. lack of water will cause yer heid gasket to go but the chances are it will be caused by the constant change in temp. and pressure, that is all part of what makes the engine work.
just about all engines these days are made of alloy of some sort and each alloy has different rates of expansion so it stands to reason that each head/block combination was react differently to the changes in temp/pressure so head gasket will blow at different times depending on the alloy used and how/where the engine is used. think about the old heavy diesel cast iron engines and them compare them to a highly tuned F1 engine you'll see that the F1 engine would be lucky to last 250 miles before suffering a major failure whereas yer lumpy old diesel would last for a few million miles.
so if you want to be sure your head gasket will last a long time detune your engine, fit a perkins diesel or install an engine that dosen't rely on changes in temp/pressure to work.
 
beamendsltd wrote:
>
> It would seen the 3.1 is a fix for the 3.0's problems. 3.1's seem
> fine.

Thanks - I'm about to probably buy a 3.1TD trooper (hoping it can tow
my 2.1t trailer better than a Jeep can - I can't afford another 110 at
present). I thought the 3.1 predated the 3.0?


--
Regards,
Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.dannyscoffee.com (UK advert for my mobile espresso service)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/European online ordering for Malabar
Gold blend)
swap Z for above characters in email address to reply

 
On 17 Nov 2005 05:10:41 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>When I do valve clearances/timing belt check the torque of the engine
>bolts - should I undo then re-do them to check they are moving OK, or
>just chack the max torque (or torque + angle?)

I'd just check they don't need any tightening to the correct torque,
prior to stretch bolts the bolts needed checking after the first
500miles and I guess a lot didn't get checked.

> Should I put new bolts
>in?

Unless you know the gasket is leaking I would not disturb the bolts
(apart from tightening them if they are not correct).

> I'll also consider putting a new gasket in - probably not much more
>work from this point.

Just what I advised against if the engine has wet liners.
>
>Finally there is a simple adjustment I can make to up the power by
>upping the boost- maybe from 0.6 to 1 bar - will these measures be
>enough (definately new gasket and bolts?) to hold it together for
>another 100K miles?

If you worry about a weak head gasket leave the boost alone.

AJH

 

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> What is people's experience. Is it 'abuse' or inevitable on a
> particular engine.
>
> The 1.8 Freelander engines are obviously a bit prone to it but the same
> engine didn't have problems in the Rover cars so this would indicate
> because the Freelander is heavier and the engine is working harder
> there is a much greater chance of it going.

The 1.8 is prone to gasket failures wherever it finds a home. Just one look
at the gasket, noting the width between cylinders and galleries gives a clue
as to why. Those spindely long 'through bolts' don't inspire much confidence
in me either.



>
> I've read posts indicating that revving above 3K when cold is much more
> likely to cause it and to let the car warm up for 10 min - a pain on a
> 20min drive to work and back!

All engines should be warmed before subjecting to heavy load, even at low
revs. Highly stressed engines, especially those known to blow head gaskets
should be driven especially carefully when cold. The reason is that metal
expands when hot and contracts when cold. It is not the relitive movement
that is especially important as that is usually catered for. It is the fact
that usually the maximum clamping force of the head is not achieved until
both head and block are expanded by heat.
In the case of the 1.8 I suspect that those long bolts expand reitively more
than traditional short studs and perhaps the engine is always prone to
gasket failure even when hot. There is also very little coolant in these
engines. It is probably the combination of factors that cause the undoubted
propensity to blow.



Huw


 

"Danny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> beamendsltd wrote:
>>
>> It would seen the 3.1 is a fix for the 3.0's problems. 3.1's seem
>> fine.
>
> Thanks - I'm about to probably buy a 3.1TD trooper (hoping it can tow my
> 2.1t trailer better than a Jeep can - I can't afford another 110 at
> present). I thought the 3.1 predated the 3.0?
>
>

Yes the 3.1 is older and indirect injection. Before that there was the
direct injection 2.8.
AFAIK the 3.1 is fairly bomb proof apart from a higher than average rate of
water pump seizures resulting in fans through rads. Not a major disaster as
disasters go.
If you want disasters the 3.0 is a monster albeit not on a grand
life-threatening scale.

Huw


 
Huw wrote:
> "Danny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>beamendsltd wrote:
>>
>>>It would seen the 3.1 is a fix for the 3.0's problems. 3.1's seem
>>>fine.
>>
>>Thanks - I'm about to probably buy a 3.1TD trooper (hoping it can tow my
>>2.1t trailer better than a Jeep can - I can't afford another 110 at
>>present). I thought the 3.1 predated the 3.0?
>>
>>
>
>
> Yes the 3.1 is older and indirect injection. Before that there was the
> direct injection 2.8.
> AFAIK the 3.1 is fairly bomb proof apart from a higher than average rate of
> water pump seizures resulting in fans through rads. Not a major disaster as
> disasters go.
> If you want disasters the 3.0 is a monster albeit not on a grand
> life-threatening scale.
>
> Huw
>
>

Thanks Huw - Do you happen to know if the 3.1 is a much better engine
than the old 2.8? You can pick up old troopers (and others) with the
2.8 engine for nearly nothing, although I like the Bighorn looks...but
they will cost me about £3k (still less than a newish 110 would).

--
Regards,
Danny

http://www.gaggia-espresso.com (a purely hobby site)
http://www.dannyscoffee.com (UK advert for my mobile espresso service)
http://www.malabargold.co.uk (UK/European online ordering for Malabar
Gold blend)
swap Z for above characters in email address to reply

 

"Danny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Huw wrote:
>> "Danny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>beamendsltd wrote:
>>>
>>>>It would seen the 3.1 is a fix for the 3.0's problems. 3.1's seem
>>>>fine.
>>>
>>>Thanks - I'm about to probably buy a 3.1TD trooper (hoping it can tow my
>>>2.1t trailer better than a Jeep can - I can't afford another 110 at
>>>present). I thought the 3.1 predated the 3.0?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Yes the 3.1 is older and indirect injection. Before that there was the
>> direct injection 2.8.
>> AFAIK the 3.1 is fairly bomb proof apart from a higher than average rate
>> of water pump seizures resulting in fans through rads. Not a major
>> disaster as disasters go.
>> If you want disasters the 3.0 is a monster albeit not on a grand
>> life-threatening scale.
>>
>> Huw
>
> Thanks Huw - Do you happen to know if the 3.1 is a much better engine than
> the old 2.8? You can pick up old troopers (and others) with the 2.8
> engine for nearly nothing, although I like the Bighorn looks...but they
> will cost me about £3k (still less than a newish 110 would).
>

Both engines are capable of 250,000 miles or more in the right hands. I have
seen examples of this.
The older square troopers with the 2.8 are a dying breed due to age and
chassis corrosion more than power-train failure.
The newer 3.0 engine can be a disaster in the best of hands.

Huw


 
People Hi,

I guess this is now an ISUZU related topic (not that I have any problem with
it)

But can we also get back into what may trigger a head gasket or a cylinder
head to fry and how to avoid this?

Especially when alloy cylinder heads are concerned (where most of the
problems tend to appear AFAIK)

I think having the cylinder head checked for flatness and then properly
tightening the head bolts and replacing them is a very good measure when you
happen to remove the cylinder head and reinstalling it.
Any other advice?

Take care
Pantelis


 
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