upgrading brakes

CharlesY said:

I'm afraid to say that sort of trick could hoick you right off the road in an 'extreme stop' situation, but probably not in real life.

I understand what you were doing, but let's re-state the basic principle - make all the bits of all the brakes the same from side to side. Both SIDES should always be the same, so the car brakes in a straight line.

When I had my garage way back in the 1970s, a customer brought a Morris Marina (wow, that was a car!) that always pulled to one side braking at low speeds, and the other side at higher speeds. This car was quite new and in warranty. The main dealers had failed to sort it, and the AA had inspected it and said it was fine.

Ha Blooming Ha! At the front, one side had a disc brake, but the other side had a drum brake.

CharlesY

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Once bought a 109 that pulled badley to one side,finaly found it had two lefthand brake backs on the front axle!

A mate asked me to check the brakes on his 90 as he found pulling up hard work,all checked out good except it was fitted with EBC green pads.

i always fit EBC green stuff pads - i like em .

You have to get them hot to get them to work well and then keep them hot, that means driving hard,hardly something that suits a 200 90 and its fuel consumption and braking is hard work when cold unless you have the legs of a weight lifter.I do not think they are suitable for normal driving.

Hi jack it up take off front wheel remove pins prise pistons back and remove worn out pads ! Replace with good quality pads ( not britpart ) new pins and springs while your there crack bleed nipple and put some new fluid into tank bleed out some fluid and maybe some air ( fluid goes off with heat moisture etc ) check your hoses , if there standard rubber ones get a mate to press brake pedal while holding flexi !! If it swells up its time to replace with some nice steel braided hoses !! They won't swell up giving better feel !! Go all four wheel do same to all and you should be able to stop ok !! It's all got to be working in a balanced fashion for a nice even braking action !! Good luck

CharlesY said:

I wonder what the MoT people would say if this was put to them.

If an MoT tester spotted this and failed it, and you appealed, I think the tester's decision would be upheld.

The answer to your question "it never pulled to one side during the week I drove it, why would it?" is that IN THEORY, under extreme conditions, the thinner lighter disc would heat up sooner than the thicker heavier one, and that MIGHT eventually cause one side to lose braking effort sooner than the other side. This would never happen in MoT test circumstances, but my bet is they would think long and hard, and then say both sides should be the same.

CharlesY

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If an MOT tester failed on this reason then an appeal would be upheld in favour of the vehicle presenter as it is not a failure, as long as the performance is there and the imbalance is within spec then there is no reason for failure, its the same as if a discs was rusty as **** and pitted to buggery, if its got performance it can only be advised.

Oh, and to the OP's original post, brake pads are the part of the brakes that makes the most difference unless you want to change brake hydralic parts. The pads are made of a compound, the discs are just steel, grooved discs aid in heat dispersal but do not add to braking performance. If you want a more aggressive pad then it will wear out quicker, you have to be carefull as alot of performance gear needs to be kept at a higher temperature to be effective, basically track or fast road driving and this is why people usually fit grooved/drilled discs to aid in the higher heat setups (If you have ever tracked a car you will know how hot brakes can get, I ran an E30 on the track and my first days driving I made the mistake of not having a cool lap and set my brakes alight)

The best option if you want to change parts is to upgrade the master cylinder and the calipers for Disco/RR stuff, these are designed for heavier vehicles and the systems is set up to apply more pressure to the braking surfaces. You could possibly look into a servo upgrade, this will give greater assistance to the pedal and again help in increasing braking pressure, I have never looked into it though so have no idea whats available for land rovers. You can increase disc size to increase contact area as well but again im not sure on the options.

I went from 200TDi defender brakes (discs/drums) over to 300TDi brakes (vented discs/discs) and it made an improvement but I want to change the master cylinder still as I am running the rears on a single pipe like the drums. I have good figures but I would like a bit more. I may look into swapping my servo as well as the fender ones are a bit wooden

ferretboy said:

Hi jack it up take off front wheel remove pins prise pistons back and remove worn out pads ! Replace with good quality pads ( not britpart ) new pins and springs while your there crack bleed nipple and put some new fluid into tank bleed out some fluid and maybe some air ( fluid goes off with heat moisture etc ) check your hoses , if there standard rubber ones get a mate to press brake pedal while holding flexi !! If it swells up its time to replace with some nice steel braided hoses !! They won't swell up giving better feel !! Go all four wheel do same to all and you should be able to stop ok !! It's all got to be working in a balanced fashion for a nice even braking action !! Good luck

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The above is what I intend to do, new quality pads new flexi pipes and I am sure that will sort it,what I am getting at is that fitting an every day landy with performance brake pads is not a good idea and while they are cold[most of the time in normal driving] braking performance is not as good as standard and may be unsafe

tottot said:

You have to get them hot to get them to work well and then keep them hot, that means driving hard,hardly something that suits a 200 90 and its fuel consumption and braking is hard work when cold unless you have the legs of a weight lifter.I do not think they are suitable for normal driving.

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rubbish.
EBC 6000 series greenstuff pads are not, as you describe them "performance" pads - there are formulated specificalyl for SUV's and 4x4's they are designed as a low dust, anti brake fade option for vehicles which may be subject to extremes of braking, such as when going off road or towing extra weight. Something that, I would have thought was more common on a 200 90 than in an MX5?
They are recomended specifically by EBC for Landrovers - http://www.ebcbrakeshop.co.uk/land-rover_c2918_39_116_34432_34440.htm

The Mad Hat Man said:

rubbish.
EBC 6000 series greenstuff pads are not, as you describe them "performance" pads - there are formulated specificalyl for SUV's and 4x4's they are designed as a low dust, anti brake fade option for vehicles which may be subject to extremes of braking, such as when going off road or towing extra weight. Something that, I would have thought was more common on a 200 90 than in an MX5?
They are recomended specifically by EBC for Landrovers - Land Rover EBC Brakes | EBC Brake Shop

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Got to agree here, there are many compounds available, not all need to get hotter, it depends. Fast road/race stuff does work better at higher temperatures but other compounds will aid in low speed/towing applications. The pads are the technical bit, just going between different suppliers can make a big difference, personally I use mainly APEC or MINTEX stuff as they are great value and good performance items, other more specialist pads will be more effective but at a higher cost.

Jongould said:

If you have ever tracked a car you will know how hot brakes can get, I ran an E30 on the track and my first days driving I made the mistake of not having a cool lap and set my brakes alight

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Where I used to work we looked after a guys Porsche 968 track car and he used to completely fry a set of pads every time he did a track day. We tried all sorts of pad/disc options from standard to expensive race equipment all to no avail. Each time it came back from a track day the pads would be completely fried and literally fall to pieces in the hand.

The Mad Hat Man said:

rubbish.
EBC 6000 series greenstuff pads are not, as you describe them "performance" pads - there are formulated specificalyl for SUV's and 4x4's they are designed as a low dust, anti brake fade option for vehicles which may be subject to extremes of braking, such as when going off road or towing extra weight. Something that, I would have thought was more common on a 200 90 than in an MX5?
They are recomended specifically by EBC for Landrovers - Land Rover EBC Brakes | EBC Brake Shop

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Apart from comp safari what sort of extreme braking is needed off road?When towing heavy loads its the trailers own brakes that should be taking most of the extra braking weight If you are standing on the brake pedal something is not right behind .Not sure whos green pads on mates landy but they are rubbish when cold.

Being as how my old thread has been resurrected into a new debate I figure I'll report back. Shortly after starting this thread i did upgrade to the vented slotted ebc disc combo and green stuff pads. Also goodrige hoses and replaced most of the copper brake tube and obviously the two front callipers for wider ones.

The brakes were better than before, but if I hit them hard they would lock the wheels. This was much improved with new all terrain tyres. I've had that combo for about a year and half now.

I think when i do next change my pads, i will consider a more standard pad. Really just for comparison with the green stuffs.

In hindsight, I do wonder whether whether doing something to improve the servo/master cylinder would have been a good idea, but they seem good enough for now. Either that or I've got used to them, and realise that they'll never be as good as on a modern vehicle.

If you stamp on them and they lock the wheels its not more braking power you need. maybe you have just hit the buffers with the laws of physics, a big heavy vehicle with A/T tyres is never going to stop like a GT3 on cut slicks with carbon ceramics.

Sorry i meant they don't really have the locking issue now. That was with tyres that came with it. They were very old perished mud tyres of some description. The all terrains have much more grip and surface area on the road.

Not so long ago I hired a ford Luton. The brakes on that were excellent. Too good until you get used to the pedal. That was much bigger and heavier than my 90. So i think better brakes is still possible.

jamesmartin said:

i would fit vented ebc disc and pads but not the very high performance pads as these need to be hot to be effective ,vented calipers are only about £50 each nowadays ,i fitted them to my v8 disco really improved braking,especially on a trip round the mountains of north wales ,i used to put specially made spacers in soild calipers tomake them vented width with longer bolts but its as cheap to buy new calipers now

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Thanks James, just saw they were on discount with Rimmer bros, and checking to see if with it!
on calipers, there is everything from £50 to £500 on Rimmer for fronts, any advice?

cborrman said:

Thanks James, just saw they were on discount with Rimmer bros, and checking to see if with it!
on calipers, there is everything from £50 to £500 on Rimmer for fronts, any advice?

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depends on your budget but i use a lot of the cheap calipers with very few problems

Great, will get the standard ones, thx