Towing out snowed in cars - a cautionary tale!

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"richard.watson" wrote:
>
> In message <[email protected]>
> Mike Romain <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Chris Lord wrote:
> > >
> > > "Mike Romain" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > "Andy.Smalley" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Mike Romain" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Let me know when and where eh so I can be there with my camera.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They get good prices for photos of death and mayhem these days as well
> > > > > > the Darwin awards are always looking for new winners! If you live, I
> > > > > > guess we could try for the 'funniest videos' like the fools this
> > > thread
> > > > > > is about.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here is what can happen when a piece of metal breaks loose in a tow.
> > > > > > This was a strap with a metal end. The metal end went ballistic.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.southernhighrollers.com/tips/articles/a_near_miss_from.htm
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Note the strap came in the back, right through the seat and out the
> > > > > > front windshield narrowly avoiding killing the driver.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > >
> > > > > The article states the reason it did this was:
> > > > > "The hook to the frame rail did not come loose; it pulled a nice
> > > > > neat piece from the rail"
> > > > > so basically it's nothing to do with 50mm tow balls
> > > > > only rusty/insecure chassis bits (as fitted as standard to LR's)
> > > > > flying when towing out of mud
> > > > >
> > > > > or have I missed the point
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > It shows the kind of stress and potential of loose bits of metal at the
> > > > end of tow ropes.
> > > >
> > > > That was only a metal D ring! Just imagine a 50 mm 'cannon' ball
> > > > letting loose!
> > > >
> > > > Like I mentioned in another post, that 'toy' 3500 kg or 50 mm tow ball
> > > > would snap off in a second if I used the full power of my winch on it.
> > > >
> > > > Only a fool would trust theirs and bystander's lives to a tow ball in an
> > > > extraction situation.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > >
> > > The yanks have always got to tackle something with full on power.
> > >
> > > My winch is bigger than yours blah blah blah
> >
> > The Americans do like their big engines and power don't they eh.
> >
> > You obviously haven't ever extracted anyone from the mud before
> > though...
> >
> > When one uses a winch, the power comes on easy but build up extremely
> > fast if the vehicle is really stuck and not moving. In my case that is
> > 8636 kg with a single block.
> >
> > Just at what point am I supposed to guess your 3500 kg tow ball is going
> > to go ballistic and try to take my head off or preferably your head
> > off???
> >
> > As I stated, only a fool would trust a tow ball for an extraction.
> >
> > Mike
> oh dear, the MSA should be told they are fools at once!!
>
> (MSA = Motor Sports Association, the UK governing body of motorsport)
>
> Richard

You 'are' kidding right?

We must be talking apples and oranges here or something.

Over here in Canada we tend to get stuck in bogs and mud, not just off
in a grass ditch or something.

I mean, bumpers get bent and torn off even if the pull is anchored only
to it and not a frame tag.

Most of the 4x4's are also pretty heavy vehicles. Even the 'little'
Jeep TJ Wranglers are about 4000 lb. I don't know what a Land Rover
weighs in at, but they get stuck in there good sometimes.

My Jeep CJ7 has to be anchored to use my winch as a pull for really
stuck vehicles, I way in less than 3000 lb, probably a lot less with the
fiberglass body.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
 
On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 14:58:03 -0500, Mike Romain <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Crap, my winch is rated to pull 19,000 lb (with block) which is about
>8636 kg and I have had it stalled more than once.

While we're asking questions, would you be so kind as to tell us the
Safe Working Load of the (wire?) rope on your winch?

Or, if you don't know, the diameter and composition of the (wire?)
rope so we can look it up elsewhere?

 
"Barry S." wrote:
>
> On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 18:05:46 -0400, Chris Phillipo
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >In article <[email protected]>,
> >[email protected] says...
> >> "Barry S." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> news:[email protected]...
> >> > If you wanted to wrap a chain around a big tree to remove it from the
> >> > road, what would you attach the chain to on the truck?
> >> >
> >> > __________________
> >>
> >> I'd hook it right onto my 10,000 lbs rated 1 1/4" stem tow ball without
> >> thinking twice about it.
> >
> >Pulling a 10,000 pound trailer along the road is not the same as being
> >rated to pull something out of the mud with 10,000 pounds of force. I
> >hope you don't learn that the hard way.
>
> What about recovery hooks on the front of full size trucks. Suppose
> you chain the front of the stuck vehicle and vehicle on pavement
> together? I believe the recovery hooks are welded to the frame.
>
> __________________

That is the proper way to go about it. Most vehicles that are intended
for off road come with factory tow hooks and rings.

These are bolted onto the frame with high grade bolts.

Then all you have to watch out for is rotten frames on older vehicles.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
 
"Andy.Smalley" wrote:
>
> "Mike Romain" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "David G. Bell" wrote:
> > >
> > > On Tuesday, in article
> > > <[email protected]>
> > > [email protected] "Chris Phillipo" wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > Bolted to a chrome plated piece of sheet metal.
> > > > >
> > > > > Well, there you are. Obviously an inadequate installation that
> doesn't
> > > > > meet current EU standards. No wonder your balls keep falling off.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Tell me, what stock car or truck are you people driving that has a 6"
> > > > frame cross member in the back were we normally would put a license
> > > > plate. Does this vehicle pass any crash safety standards?
> > >
> > > Well, I'll stick to a Land Rover. But you might want to look at the
> > > products of an American company called John Deere. Or maybe
> > > Caterpillar.
> > >
> > > But why don't you explain just how you'd fasten that winch of yours to a
> > > vehicle you're trying to recover, whether you're using the snatch block
> > > or not.
> > >
> > > --
> >
> > I don't know about him, but I have short straps that can wrap around a
> > frame to give an anchor point if the vehicle isn't equipped with a tow
> > hook or ring bolted to the frame.
>
> Ah but in the example you gave it was the frame that gave way
> so by your own standards this is dangerous and should be avoided
>
> Andy

I have come across stuck vehicles that I refused to use their anchor
points for an extraction because of rust. That is why I have straps. I
can spread the load then.

Here in Canada we have serious rust issues and anyone doing an
extraction needs to use his eyes and brains to avoid problems like
broken frames, etc.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
 
QrizB wrote:
>
> On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 14:58:03 -0500, Mike Romain <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Crap, my winch is rated to pull 19,000 lb (with block) which is about
> >8636 kg and I have had it stalled more than once.
>
> While we're asking questions, would you be so kind as to tell us the
> Safe Working Load of the (wire?) rope on your winch?
>
> Or, if you don't know, the diameter and composition of the (wire?)
> rope so we can look it up elsewhere?

I have a Warn XD9000i winch with 125' of 5/16 or 8mm aircraft wire rope.

It is rated at 9000 lb or 4080 kg for a single pull (another site has it
rated at 9500 lb single pull) and the wire rope has a 4773 kg or 10500
lb breaking point.

http://www.warn.com/truck/winches/src/XD9000i.shtml for the winch.

And for the wire rope specifications, see:

http://www.warn.com/industrial/winches/series6hyd_pn33445.shtml

Not the same winch, but the same rope I think.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
 
In message <[email protected]>
Mike Romain <[email protected]> wrote:

> "richard.watson" wrote:
> >
> > In message <[email protected]>
> > Mike Romain <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Chris Lord wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Mike Romain" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > > "Andy.Smalley" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Mike Romain" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Let me know when and where eh so I can be there with my camera.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > They get good prices for photos of death and mayhem these days as well
> > > > > > > the Darwin awards are always looking for new winners! If you live, I
> > > > > > > guess we could try for the 'funniest videos' like the fools this
> > > > thread
> > > > > > > is about.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Here is what can happen when a piece of metal breaks loose in a tow.
> > > > > > > This was a strap with a metal end. The metal end went ballistic.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://www.southernhighrollers.com/tips/articles/a_near_miss_from.htm
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Note the strap came in the back, right through the seat and out the
> > > > > > > front windshield narrowly avoiding killing the driver.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Mike
> > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The article states the reason it did this was:
> > > > > > "The hook to the frame rail did not come loose; it pulled a nice
> > > > > > neat piece from the rail"
> > > > > > so basically it's nothing to do with 50mm tow balls
> > > > > > only rusty/insecure chassis bits (as fitted as standard to LR's)
> > > > > > flying when towing out of mud
> > > > > >
> > > > > > or have I missed the point
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > It shows the kind of stress and potential of loose bits of metal at the
> > > > > end of tow ropes.
> > > > >
> > > > > That was only a metal D ring! Just imagine a 50 mm 'cannon' ball
> > > > > letting loose!
> > > > >
> > > > > Like I mentioned in another post, that 'toy' 3500 kg or 50 mm tow ball
> > > > > would snap off in a second if I used the full power of my winch on it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Only a fool would trust theirs and bystander's lives to a tow ball in an
> > > > > extraction situation.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > > The yanks have always got to tackle something with full on power.
> > > >
> > > > My winch is bigger than yours blah blah blah
> > >
> > > The Americans do like their big engines and power don't they eh.
> > >
> > > You obviously haven't ever extracted anyone from the mud before
> > > though...
> > >
> > > When one uses a winch, the power comes on easy but build up extremely
> > > fast if the vehicle is really stuck and not moving. In my case that is
> > > 8636 kg with a single block.
> > >
> > > Just at what point am I supposed to guess your 3500 kg tow ball is going
> > > to go ballistic and try to take my head off or preferably your head
> > > off???
> > >
> > > As I stated, only a fool would trust a tow ball for an extraction.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > oh dear, the MSA should be told they are fools at once!!
> >
> > (MSA = Motor Sports Association, the UK governing body of motorsport)
> >
> > Richard
>
> You 'are' kidding right?
>
Nope.
> We must be talking apples and oranges here or something.
>
> Over here in Canada we tend to get stuck in bogs and mud, not just off
> in a grass ditch or something.
>
Ah right, the UK's bone dry! Must remember that............
> I mean, bumpers get bent and torn off even if the pull is anchored only
> to it and not a frame tag.
I don't know about other makes, but a correctly fitted tow hitch on a
front bumper of a Land Rover (i.e. with a spreader plate behind it,
between, or in front of, the dumb irons) is
effectively part of the chassis, and at the rear it *is* part of the
chassis. Applying sufficient force to pull them off would at the very
least severely injure anyone in the vehicle during a snatch, and a winch
, even of massive proportions, would stall.
Perhaps a good illustration of the strength of the front arrangement
was at the ARC Nationals at Bordon a couple of years ago when Colin
Farrels Diso got bogged down to the chassis (on the camping field!!!)
- it took three Liconshire Club triallers, with kinetics, to
snatch him out. No damage was done.
>
> Most of the 4x4's are also pretty heavy vehicles. Even the 'little'
> Jeep TJ Wranglers are about 4000 lb. I don't know what a Land Rover
> weighs in at, but they get stuck in there good sometimes.
>
On average, Land Rovers (excluding Freelander) weigh 2 tonnes - a bit
less for SWB. The exact figure depends on the spec of the particular
vehicle.
> My Jeep CJ7 has to be anchored to use my winch as a pull for really
> stuck vehicles, I way in less than 3000 lb, probably a lot less with the
> fiberglass body.
>
Which demonstates that weight, either high or low, has its pro's and
con's - personaly I think Land Rovers 2 tonnes is a good compromise,
light enough not to sink like a stone, but heavy enough to provide
a good bit of inertia when required, such as snatching, perferably
with a kinetic rope, and to provide a reasonble anchor for winching -
though hitching two together to get a really stuck motor out is the
best solution. It's noticable that practically all Far Eastern 4x4's
weigh in at pretty much the same figure.

> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems
 
On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 21:08:13 +0000, richard.watson
<[email protected]> wrote:

>In message <[email protected]>
> Mike Romain <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> "richard.watson" wrote:
>> >
>> > In message <[email protected]>
>> > Mike Romain <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Chris Lord wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > "Mike Romain" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > > > news:[email protected]...
>> > > > > "Andy.Smalley" wrote:
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > "Mike Romain" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > > > > > news:[email protected]...
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Let me know when and where eh so I can be there with my camera.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > They get good prices for photos of death and mayhem these days as well
>> > > > > > > the Darwin awards are always looking for new winners! If you live, I
>> > > > > > > guess we could try for the 'funniest videos' like the fools this
>> > > > thread
>> > > > > > > is about.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Here is what can happen when a piece of metal breaks loose in a tow.
>> > > > > > > This was a strap with a metal end. The metal end went ballistic.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > http://www.southernhighrollers.com/tips/articles/a_near_miss_from.htm
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Note the strap came in the back, right through the seat and out the
>> > > > > > > front windshield narrowly avoiding killing the driver.
>> > > > > > >
>> > > > > > > Mike
>> > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
>> > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > The article states the reason it did this was:
>> > > > > > "The hook to the frame rail did not come loose; it pulled a nice
>> > > > > > neat piece from the rail"
>> > > > > > so basically it's nothing to do with 50mm tow balls
>> > > > > > only rusty/insecure chassis bits (as fitted as standard to LR's)
>> > > > > > flying when towing out of mud
>> > > > > >
>> > > > > > or have I missed the point
>> > > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > > It shows the kind of stress and potential of loose bits of metal at the
>> > > > > end of tow ropes.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > That was only a metal D ring! Just imagine a 50 mm 'cannon' ball
>> > > > > letting loose!
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Like I mentioned in another post, that 'toy' 3500 kg or 50 mm tow ball
>> > > > > would snap off in a second if I used the full power of my winch on it.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Only a fool would trust theirs and bystander's lives to a tow ball in an
>> > > > > extraction situation.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Mike
>> > > >
>> > > > The yanks have always got to tackle something with full on power.
>> > > >
>> > > > My winch is bigger than yours blah blah blah
>> > >
>> > > The Americans do like their big engines and power don't they eh.
>> > >
>> > > You obviously haven't ever extracted anyone from the mud before
>> > > though...
>> > >
>> > > When one uses a winch, the power comes on easy but build up extremely
>> > > fast if the vehicle is really stuck and not moving. In my case that is
>> > > 8636 kg with a single block.
>> > >
>> > > Just at what point am I supposed to guess your 3500 kg tow ball is going
>> > > to go ballistic and try to take my head off or preferably your head
>> > > off???
>> > >
>> > > As I stated, only a fool would trust a tow ball for an extraction.
>> > >
>> > > Mike
>> > oh dear, the MSA should be told they are fools at once!!
>> >
>> > (MSA = Motor Sports Association, the UK governing body of motorsport)
>> >
>> > Richard
>>
>> You 'are' kidding right?
>>
>Nope.
>> We must be talking apples and oranges here or something.
>>
>> Over here in Canada we tend to get stuck in bogs and mud, not just off
>> in a grass ditch or something.
>>
>Ah right, the UK's bone dry! Must remember that............
>> I mean, bumpers get bent and torn off even if the pull is anchored only
>> to it and not a frame tag.
>I don't know about other makes, but a correctly fitted tow hitch on a
>front bumper of a Land Rover (i.e. with a spreader plate behind it,
>between, or in front of, the dumb irons) is
>effectively part of the chassis, and at the rear it *is* part of the
>chassis. Applying sufficient force to pull them off would at the very
>least severely injure anyone in the vehicle during a snatch, and a winch
>, even of massive proportions, would stall.
>Perhaps a good illustration of the strength of the front arrangement
>was at the ARC Nationals at Bordon a couple of years ago when Colin
>Farrels Diso got bogged down to the chassis (on the camping field!!!)
>- it took three Liconshire Club triallers, with kinetics, to
>snatch him out. No damage was done.

Did they snatch him out by the ball?

bw
 
In message <[email protected]>
bdubya <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 21:08:13 +0000, richard.watson
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >In message <[email protected]>
> > Mike Romain <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> "richard.watson" wrote:
> >> >
> >> > In message <[email protected]>
> >> > Mike Romain <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Chris Lord wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > "Mike Romain" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> > > > news:[email protected]...
> >> > > > > "Andy.Smalley" wrote:
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > "Mike Romain" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> > > > > > news:[email protected]...
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Let me know when and where eh so I can be there with my camera.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > They get good prices for photos of death and mayhem these days as well
> >> > > > > > > the Darwin awards are always looking for new winners! If you live, I
> >> > > > > > > guess we could try for the 'funniest videos' like the fools this
> >> > > > thread
> >> > > > > > > is about.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Here is what can happen when a piece of metal breaks loose in a tow.
> >> > > > > > > This was a strap with a metal end. The metal end went ballistic.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > http://www.southernhighrollers.com/tips/articles/a_near_miss_from.htm
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Note the strap came in the back, right through the seat and out the
> >> > > > > > > front windshield narrowly avoiding killing the driver.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Mike
> >> > > > > > > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> >> > > > > > > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > The article states the reason it did this was:
> >> > > > > > "The hook to the frame rail did not come loose; it pulled a nice
> >> > > > > > neat piece from the rail"
> >> > > > > > so basically it's nothing to do with 50mm tow balls
> >> > > > > > only rusty/insecure chassis bits (as fitted as standard to LR's)
> >> > > > > > flying when towing out of mud
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > or have I missed the point
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > It shows the kind of stress and potential of loose bits of metal at the
> >> > > > > end of tow ropes.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > That was only a metal D ring! Just imagine a 50 mm 'cannon' ball
> >> > > > > letting loose!
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Like I mentioned in another post, that 'toy' 3500 kg or 50 mm tow ball
> >> > > > > would snap off in a second if I used the full power of my winch on it.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Only a fool would trust theirs and bystander's lives to a tow ball in an
> >> > > > > extraction situation.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Mike
> >> > > >
> >> > > > The yanks have always got to tackle something with full on power.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > My winch is bigger than yours blah blah blah
> >> > >
> >> > > The Americans do like their big engines and power don't they eh.
> >> > >
> >> > > You obviously haven't ever extracted anyone from the mud before
> >> > > though...
> >> > >
> >> > > When one uses a winch, the power comes on easy but build up extremely
> >> > > fast if the vehicle is really stuck and not moving. In my case that is
> >> > > 8636 kg with a single block.
> >> > >
> >> > > Just at what point am I supposed to guess your 3500 kg tow ball is going
> >> > > to go ballistic and try to take my head off or preferably your head
> >> > > off???
> >> > >
> >> > > As I stated, only a fool would trust a tow ball for an extraction.
> >> > >
> >> > > Mike
> >> > oh dear, the MSA should be told they are fools at once!!
> >> >
> >> > (MSA = Motor Sports Association, the UK governing body of motorsport)
> >> >
> >> > Richard
> >>
> >> You 'are' kidding right?
> >>
> >Nope.
> >> We must be talking apples and oranges here or something.
> >>
> >> Over here in Canada we tend to get stuck in bogs and mud, not just off
> >> in a grass ditch or something.
> >>
> >Ah right, the UK's bone dry! Must remember that............
> >> I mean, bumpers get bent and torn off even if the pull is anchored only
> >> to it and not a frame tag.
> >I don't know about other makes, but a correctly fitted tow hitch on a
> >front bumper of a Land Rover (i.e. with a spreader plate behind it,
> >between, or in front of, the dumb irons) is
> >effectively part of the chassis, and at the rear it *is* part of the
> >chassis. Applying sufficient force to pull them off would at the very
> >least severely injure anyone in the vehicle during a snatch, and a winch
> >, even of massive proportions, would stall.
> >Perhaps a good illustration of the strength of the front arrangement
> >was at the ARC Nationals at Bordon a couple of years ago when Colin
> >Farrels Diso got bogged down to the chassis (on the camping field!!!)
> >- it took three Liconshire Club triallers, with kinetics, to
> >snatch him out. No damage was done.
>
> Did they snatch him out by the ball?
>
> bw

Yes - or rather, when trying to get him out backwards it was, he
eventually came out forwards, using the lashing eyes. The lashing eyes
are definately not recommended for recovery, but they are remarkably
strong - mine on the 110 spent 2 years shunting dead motors around
my yard with a bar and have not broken, or even bent - much!

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems
 
On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 15:19:31 -0600, bdubya <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Did they snatch him out by the ball?

Now that made my eyes water just thinking about it <vbg>

--
QrizB

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
 
"richard.watson" wrote:
>
> In message <[email protected]>
> Mike Romain <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > You obviously haven't ever extracted anyone from the mud before
> > > > though...
> > > >
> > > > When one uses a winch, the power comes on easy but build up extremely
> > > > fast if the vehicle is really stuck and not moving. In my case that is
> > > > 8636 kg with a single block.
> > > >
> > > > Just at what point am I supposed to guess your 3500 kg tow ball is going
> > > > to go ballistic and try to take my head off or preferably your head
> > > > off???
> > > >
> > > > As I stated, only a fool would trust a tow ball for an extraction.
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > oh dear, the MSA should be told they are fools at once!!
> > >
> > > (MSA = Motor Sports Association, the UK governing body of motorsport)
> > >
> > > Richard
> >
> > You 'are' kidding right?
> >
> Nope.

Ok.....

> > We must be talking apples and oranges here or something.
> >
> > Over here in Canada we tend to get stuck in bogs and mud, not just off
> > in a grass ditch or something.
> >
> Ah right, the UK's bone dry! Must remember that............

LOL!

> > I mean, bumpers get bent and torn off even if the pull is anchored only
> > to it and not a frame tag.
> I don't know about other makes, but a correctly fitted tow hitch on a
> front bumper of a Land Rover (i.e. with a spreader plate behind it,
> between, or in front of, the dumb irons) is
> effectively part of the chassis, and at the rear it *is* part of the
> chassis. Applying sufficient force to pull them off would at the very
> least severely injure anyone in the vehicle during a snatch, and a winch
> , even of massive proportions, would stall.

Apples and oranges for sure here!

Not talking tow ball mount, just the ball. Hitch mounts can be made
strong enough to anchor the winch, let alone a tow ball.

This is a world wide forum cross posted and advocating using a stock or
generic tow ball as an extraction anchor is nuts!!!!

The post bolting the ball to the mount is only about 1" or less in most
cases.

Use a snatch or knetic rope puts serious stress on the ball. Softer hit
than a 'hard' chain which will just drop the ball off to the ground, but
more dangerous if it lets loose. Same for a winch that can shear it!


> Perhaps a good illustration of the strength of the front arrangement
> was at the ARC Nationals at Bordon a couple of years ago when Colin
> Farrels Diso got bogged down to the chassis (on the camping field!!!)
> - it took three Liconshire Club triallers, with kinetics, to
> snatch him out. No damage was done.

Now for sure we are on other planets!!!!

I mentioned the difference from our bogs an that 'grass ditch' your
camping field is on a while ago.

LOL!!!! You are just toooo funny!

Yes, I will have to admit I would likey let someone use their tow ball
as an anchor to get them out of the campground parking lot....

ROTFLMAO!!!!!!

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
 
On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 14:51:25 -0500, Mike Romain <[email protected]>
wrote:

>QrizB wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 14:58:03 -0500, Mike Romain <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Crap, my winch is rated to pull 19,000 lb (with block) which is about
>> >8636 kg and I have had it stalled more than once.
>>
>> While we're asking questions, would you be so kind as to tell us the
>> Safe Working Load of the (wire?) rope on your winch?
>
>I have a Warn XD9000i winch with 125' of 5/16 or 8mm aircraft wire rope.
>
>It is rated at 9000 lb or 4080 kg for a single pull (another site has it
>rated at 9500 lb single pull) and the wire rope has a 4773 kg or 10500
>lb breaking point.
>
>http://www.warn.com/truck/winches/src/XD9000i.shtml for the winch.
>
>And for the wire rope specifications, see:
>
>http://www.warn.com/industrial/winches/series6hyd_pn33445.shtml
>
>Not the same winch, but the same rope I think.

Thanks. Please don't think I'm being deliberately provocative, but the
safe working load of your wire is less about one ton/tonne:

http://www.tiedown.com/winch.html
http://www.airwinch.com/tools/wireropechart.htm


 

> >
> >Pulling a 10,000 pound trailer along the road is not the same as being
> >rated to pull something out of the mud with 10,000 pounds of force. I
> >hope you don't learn that the hard way.
>
> What about recovery hooks on the front of full size trucks. Suppose
> you chain the front of the stuck vehicle and vehicle on pavement
> together? I believe the recovery hooks are welded to the frame.
>
>

Yes recover hooks are welded or bolted on the frame, which is what you
should be using if you have them. Unibody POS cars do not have them and
no body should be doing a hard cable pull on a car like that.
--
____________________
Remove "X" from email address to reply.
 
In article <[email protected]>, orygunguy2001
@hotmail.com says...
> You may want to bash American's but when you need us to save your sorry ass
> we will!
>

We don't have any oil, go away.
--
____________________
Remove "X" from email address to reply.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Excuse me a moment...
>
> [SFX: door opening, footsteps fading into the distance. Slow ticking of
> nearby clock. Fade in footsteps. Door closing]
>
> The Ford in the garage doesn't have a frame.
>
> The Land Rover has a NATO tow-hook bolted to the frame, but I understand
> this ancient design couldn't be sold as a new vehicle in the US.
>
> I suppose you can use your winch for self-recovery, but there doesn't
> seem to be much else you can do with it.
>
> And I'm a bit doubtful about a "tire carrier bumper" as an attachment
> point; I'd have to take a close look to be sure.
>
> In any event, I still can't figure how a tow truck could do any better.
> The folk I know over here who have winches seem to have other stuff to
> help attach to the vehicle being recovered, such as a bridle to spread
> the load between two points, and there are various methods of absorbing
> the rebound energy if a cable or attachment breaks. You're giving me
> the strong impression that you haven't thought through what you're
> saying, and, unless you have some other use for that winch, you're a bit
> of a show-off.
>

A proper tow truck can pick up a car by the wheels and has insurace for
if it does rip the front end of your car. That's what's different.
You're giving me a strong impression you are missing the point.
--
____________________
Remove "X" from email address to reply.
 
In article <[email protected]>, Mother <"@
{mother} @"@101fc.net> says...
> http://www.luckwill.com - LUCKWILL JAILED
> =========================================
>
> On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 22:24:17 GMT, SpamTrapSeeSig
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Um, Land Rover? What did you think we drive?
>
> Crossposting tossers very seldom know where their comments go. They
> simply hit reply and assume that everyone lives in their own padded
> little world...
>
>
> Martyn
>
>

Follow up on this, chucklehead.

--
____________________
Remove "X" from email address to reply.
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 15:19:31 -0600, bdubya <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Did they snatch him out by the ball?
>
> Now that made my eyes water just thinking about it <vbg>
>
>

I thought that was a british humour test and the first respondent
failed.
--
____________________
Remove "X" from email address to reply.
 

> >http://www.warn.com/truck/winches/src/XD9000i.shtml for the winch.
> >
> >And for the wire rope specifications, see:
> >
> >http://www.warn.com/industrial/winches/series6hyd_pn33445.shtml
> >
> >Not the same winch, but the same rope I think.
>
> Thanks. Please don't think I'm being deliberately provocative, but the
> safe working load of your wire is less about one ton/tonne:
>
> http://www.tiedown.com/winch.html
> http://www.airwinch.com/tools/wireropechart.htm
>
>
>

Or try http://www.winchtest.com/, they fail at about 8500lbs. However
to actually generate 9000 lbs. of pull on a winch rated for that you
will only get it on the first wrap of the drum, which means you'd have
to let out 125' of cable to do it. People rarely do that. Besides,
with a snatch block you can safely go to 16,000 lbs. And if you are
more stuck than that you are leaving the truck there for archeologists
for find in 200 years.
--
____________________
Remove "X" from email address to reply.
 
On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 19:56:43 -0400, Chris Phillipo
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>> >
>> >Pulling a 10,000 pound trailer along the road is not the same as being
>> >rated to pull something out of the mud with 10,000 pounds of force. I
>> >hope you don't learn that the hard way.
>>
>> What about recovery hooks on the front of full size trucks. Suppose
>> you chain the front of the stuck vehicle and vehicle on pavement
>> together? I believe the recovery hooks are welded to the frame.
>>
>>
>
>Yes recover hooks are welded or bolted on the frame, which is what you
>should be using if you have them. Unibody POS cars do not have them and
>no body should be doing a hard cable pull on a car like that.

Well, if your POS unibody is stuck in the snow and you can attach a
chain or strap to your recovery hooks, what would you hook it to on
the car to pull it out? Usually when you get towed, they grab ya by
the wheels, but I think a hard pull might just give you an unwanted
caster adjustment if using straps around the wheels as the pull point.


__________________
Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with 'mail'.
N38.6 W121.4
 

> >> together? I believe the recovery hooks are welded to the frame.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Yes recover hooks are welded or bolted on the frame, which is what you
> >should be using if you have them. Unibody POS cars do not have them and
> >no body should be doing a hard cable pull on a car like that.
>
> Well, if your POS unibody is stuck in the snow and you can attach a
> chain or strap to your recovery hooks, what would you hook it to on
> the car to pull it out? Usually when you get towed, they grab ya by

You are talking in circles, what's stuck nt he snow, my truck or the
peice of **** unibody car? If a POS car is really stuck, I don't try to
pull it out with my truck, it's that simple. It's tough luck buddy,
learn to drive and get some snow tires next time.

> the wheels, but I think a hard pull might just give you an unwanted
> caster adjustment if using straps around the wheels as the pull point.
>

Let the towing company worry about it. Fact is if they screw it up it's
covered, if I screw it up the other guys insurance company pays for it
and then they sue ME to recover the funds. Screw that.
--
____________________
Remove "X" from email address to reply.
 
In message <[email protected]>
Mike Romain <[email protected]> wrote:

> "richard.watson" wrote:
> >
> > In message <[email protected]>
> > Mike Romain <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > You obviously haven't ever extracted anyone from the mud before
> > > > > though...
> > > > >
> > > > > When one uses a winch, the power comes on easy but build up extremely
> > > > > fast if the vehicle is really stuck and not moving. In my case that is
> > > > > 8636 kg with a single block.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just at what point am I supposed to guess your 3500 kg tow ball is going
> > > > > to go ballistic and try to take my head off or preferably your head
> > > > > off???
> > > > >
> > > > > As I stated, only a fool would trust a tow ball for an extraction.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > oh dear, the MSA should be told they are fools at once!!
> > > >
> > > > (MSA = Motor Sports Association, the UK governing body of motorsport)
> > > >
> > > > Richard
> > >
> > > You 'are' kidding right?
> > >
> > Nope.
>
> Ok.....
>
> > > We must be talking apples and oranges here or something.
> > >
> > > Over here in Canada we tend to get stuck in bogs and mud, not just off
> > > in a grass ditch or something.
> > >
> > Ah right, the UK's bone dry! Must remember that............
>
> LOL!
>
> > > I mean, bumpers get bent and torn off even if the pull is anchored only
> > > to it and not a frame tag.
> > I don't know about other makes, but a correctly fitted tow hitch on a
> > front bumper of a Land Rover (i.e. with a spreader plate behind it,
> > between, or in front of, the dumb irons) is
> > effectively part of the chassis, and at the rear it *is* part of the
> > chassis. Applying sufficient force to pull them off would at the very
> > least severely injure anyone in the vehicle during a snatch, and a winch
> > , even of massive proportions, would stall.
>
> Apples and oranges for sure here!
It's chalk and cheese in these parts - but no, that's not what I'm saying.
>
> Not talking tow ball mount, just the ball. Hitch mounts can be made
> strong enough to anchor the winch, let alone a tow ball.
I was refering to the comment about bumpers comming off...
>
> This is a world wide forum cross posted and advocating using a stock or
> generic tow ball as an extraction anchor is nuts!!!!
We'll just have to disagree about that...
>
> The post bolting the ball to the mount is only about 1" or less in most
> cases.
EU tow balls do not have bolts conecting the ball to the mount -
is that where some confusion is comming from? EU approved towing balls
are one-piece affairs.
>
> Use a snatch or knetic rope puts serious stress on the ball. Softer hit
> than a 'hard' chain which will just drop the ball off to the ground, but
> more dangerous if it lets loose. Same for a winch that can shear it!
>
Snatching with a chain?????!!!! We'll very definately have to agree to
disagree with doing that. I'll bet a kinetic rope can apply way more
force than a winch too.
>
> > Perhaps a good illustration of the strength of the front arrangement
> > was at the ARC Nationals at Bordon a couple of years ago when Colin
> > Farrels Diso got bogged down to the chassis (on the camping field!!!)
> > - it took three Liconshire Club triallers, with kinetics, to
> > snatch him out. No damage was done.
>
> Now for sure we are on other planets!!!!
>
Thats the trouble with facts, they do tend to spoil pet theories ;)
> I mentioned the difference from our bogs an that 'grass ditch' your
> camping field is on a while ago.
Grass ditch? That was a flat field! We have a wide variety of bogs
available too, any depth you like!
>
> LOL!!!! You are just toooo funny!
aw, shucks xxxx
>
> Yes, I will have to admit I would likey let someone use their tow ball
> as an anchor to get them out of the campground parking lot....
>
Such unbounded generosity- I think you may have missed the point about
"bogged down to the chassis" - it means that the wheels are effectively
not it contact with the ground, all four of them.
> ROTFLMAO!!!!!!
Bless you - is it catching?
>
> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems
 
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