1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Welcome To LandyZone!

    LandyZone is the biggest Land Rover forum on the net. We have plenty of very knowledgable members so if you have any questions about your Land Rover or just want to connect with other Landy owners, you're in the right place.

    Registering is free and easy just click here, we hope to see you on the forums soon!

Freelander 1 Brake Flares - A cautionary tale !!

Discussion in 'Land Rover Freelander' started by andyfreelandy, Nov 7, 2019.

< Previous Thread | Next Thread >
  1. andyfreelandy

    andyfreelandy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Posts:
    1,416
    Likes Received:
    368
    Location:
    Devon
    Further to my share of knowledge on the brake flares used on the F1 and the tools required, I thought I'd share a potential serious failure that I discovered on a 'garage serviced and maintained vehicle' recently.

    Whilst changing the fuel tank cradle, more of that in another thread, I noticed a very poor condition brake hose. The ferrules had rusted away and the ends were held into the brackets on the car with jubilee clips!!

    Of course, copper pipes rarely unscrew as they seize in the brake pipe fitting, no problem I thought, I'll unscrew the brake hose from the pipe, which I did.

    Just about to fit the new hose and noticed a 'copper washer' on the floor. Odd thinks me, where has that come from. Further examination showed that it was the remains of the double flare on the end of said brake pipe! Obviously, I then remade the brake line as well. The cause of the flare failure? The double flare was fitted using a standard flat ended brake nut, not the one with the 90 degree countersink in the end. The result was that the double flare got crushed and when unscrewed sheared off as it was too thin.

    Morale of the story, always use the correct fittings for the flare type. On the F1 there are ISO flares which require a flat ended nut and SAE double flares which MUST have the ones with the 90 degree countersink in the end to accommodate the double flare when tightened.

    If I hadn't noticed the 'copper washer' the story could have been very different, wondering about the other garage fitted brake lines now !!
     
    Avocet1 and rob_bell like this.
  2. andyfreelandy

    andyfreelandy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Posts:
    1,416
    Likes Received:
    368
    Location:
    Devon
  3. Jayridium

    Jayridium Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2013
    Posts:
    197
    Likes Received:
    25
    I've got a Sykes Pickavant vice mounted tool which can do the appropriate flares, however I have had to do some brake pipes on my BMW which are so awkwardly routed I think the design engineer responsible for them deserves a damned good beating. Consequently when I got the pipes 3/4 of the way through there was no way in hell I was taking them off to flare the second ends in the vice mounted tool and refit them. So I bought this:
    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/272815053600
    [​IMG]

    I can hands on heart say this this gives nearly as nice a flare as the Sykes Pickavant tool, and at ~£35 it may be more pricey than the likes of Nielsen's cheap and nasty flaring tools, but it is money well spent, and as such I recommend anyone who might have to use the information in Andy's cautionary tale, to buy this item.
     
  4. andyfreelandy

    andyfreelandy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Posts:
    1,416
    Likes Received:
    368
    Location:
    Devon
    I have the same type but for a F1 you'll need the head that does DIN flares too.
     
  5. andyfreelandy

    andyfreelandy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Posts:
    1,416
    Likes Received:
    368
    Location:
    Devon
  6. Jayridium

    Jayridium Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2013
    Posts:
    197
    Likes Received:
    25
  7. andyfreelandy

    andyfreelandy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Posts:
    1,416
    Likes Received:
    368
    Location:
    Devon
    Thanks, interestingly nothing in the item title makes them stand out as different to the plain brake pipe nuts.

    Out tidying workshop after yesterday's activities, thought I'd photo what I am on about above and do a simple destructive test on some scrap pipe to show the problem.

    Firstly, a garage maintained vehicle brake hose retainer - vehicle has current MOT !
    DSC_1449.JPG
    Now to the failed flared joint, this is what fell out of the brake hose end when unscrewed.
    DSC_1451.JPG
    Ahha I hear you say, the fitter should have used an SAE 040110 type fitting, and you'd be right! Instead they used the first thing in the parts tray that has a 10mm thread.
    Comparison of the 2 different 10mm brake pipe fittings, hard to see the difference, but stay with me....
    DSC_1453.JPG Correct one for an 'inverted' or 'double' flare is on the left, the one that caused the failure is on the right.
    So, to reconstruct, I took a steel brake pipe and fitted it into the right fitting and tightened it to the brake hose, all good.
    When placed in the wrong fitting (look at the end of the pipe with the cone shape) the flare was badly distorted.
    DSC_1458.JPG and the brake pipe end shape.
    DSC_1450.JPG
    When the test was repeated with a copper pipe, the failure could easily be recreated.
    DSC_1460.JPG
    So, if when you have placed a fitting on a brake pipe and added a double SAE flare; If it looks like the one in the next photo DON'T FIT IT!
    DSC_1456.JPG
    It should look like the one below, the fitting is countersunk to allow space for the material in the double flare without crushing it to destruction.
    DSC_1455.JPG
    Hopefully that all makes sense, worth convincing myself too. I hate to see a failure and not understand why it happened.
    Drive and more importantly, brake - SAFELY !

    As Monsieur Jeremy Clarkson once said, it's not speed that kills you, it is the rapidly coming to a stop :eek:
     
    guineafowl21 likes this.
  8. guineafowl21

    guineafowl21 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2015
    Posts:
    2,244
    Likes Received:
    1,109
    Location:
    Inverness
    Nice info!

    As said, wrong union used, but the mechanic probably tightened it up too much. I was once helping a (qualified, experienced) mechanic fit a copper brake pipe, and watched him honking the union up like it was steel. He told me to watch for leaks, stood on the brake pedal, and... whoosh! The joint parted. You could see the copper ‘washer’ left inside when he undid it.

    For copper, snug it down by hand, then half a turn, test for leaks. Nip up 1/8 turn if needed. Better it dribbles than fails completely.
     
  9. Hippo

    Hippo Lord Hippo

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2007
    Posts:
    30,962
    Likes Received:
    8,973
    Interesting stuff. Even though a car is said to have only been garaged maintained, yer never really know who has been working on it.
     
  10. kermit_rr

    kermit_rr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2018
    Posts:
    2,553
    Likes Received:
    1,193
    Location:
    North Shropshire
    Just do it effing up.. none of this 'is it tight enough' nonsense, then going back and re-tightening! Complete waste of time!! :Rolleyes:
     
    freelance likes this.
  11. Europa486

    Europa486 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2019
    Posts:
    122
    Likes Received:
    106
    Location:
    London
    Avocet1 likes this.
  12. Jayridium

    Jayridium Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2013
    Posts:
    197
    Likes Received:
    25
    I'm using Cunifer pipe on m BMW just now, as it is more robust than copper. But the stuff I'm using is a dull browny bronzy colour, where as the pipe in the link @Europa486 posted looks like straight copper. For a fun bit of scientific testing, I decided to destructively test some Cuni flares against Copper ones. Basically I flared up a pipe end in each copper and cuni, put a female fitting in the vice and gorrilla'd it up intentionally destructively overly tight. On copper I sheared the flare off the pipe into a cper washer, on Cuni I stripped the threads.
     
    Avocet1 likes this.
  13. kermit_rr

    kermit_rr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2018
    Posts:
    2,553
    Likes Received:
    1,193
    Location:
    North Shropshire
    The lesson the then is to use copper so you don't strip the thread!! :D
     
< Previous Thread | Next Thread >