Towing Confusion

fill my tank we doosel and i'll do it for ya!!

Its a pain because it desiged to stop inexperienced drivers towing anything that is likley to make a bad situation wors. I have been towing a wide track sankey since way before I passed my test reversing it into spaces 6 inches wider that the sankey off road and on hard standing. I phoned a local company to ask about taking my test and they said that they would not even put me for the test unless A. I had at least one 2 hours session with their instructor. B they also said that the vehicle has to be fitted with a warning buzzer for indicators which my landy doesn not have. Also they wanted a Ball and refused to use the nato hitch I have. I will continue to use the Sankey it is rated @ 7Kgs over the MAM allowed on my license.

I must add that I will get my Sankey re stamped asap to get me legal but its feckin crazy. I bet half the instructors couldn't reverse such a small trailer as well.

If anyone finds a cheaper place to do a trailer test please shout. Whats the rules ragarding somone sitting next to you and wearing L plates do they have to be registered or somthing?

I don't think you can just put L plates on, sit someone in the passenger seat and off you go with your 3500kg trailer. Well if you can it makes a ****in mockery of the regs doesn't it?

jai_landrover said:

...... I phoned a local company to ask about taking my test and they said that they would not even put me for the test unless A. I had at least one 2 hours session with their instructor. B they also said that the vehicle has to be fitted with a warning buzzer for indicators which my landy doesn not have. Also they wanted a Ball and refused to use the nato hitch I have. I will continue to use the Sankey it is rated @ 7Kgs over the MAM allowed on my license.

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Well as far as I know.... the instructor you called is talking some moo-droppings.

Your landy & sankey cannot be used because the view is too good. Nothing to do with buzzers and hitches. The trailer must be tall and wide enough that there is no view through the back of the towing vehicle. It must be big enough that you can only use side mirrors. If you had a suitable trailer/vehicle combo there is nothing to stop you going to the test centre with a suitable accomanying driver. No need to pay anything other than the test fee. Having said that, an ADI should have a good idea on any particular tricky routes or maneuveres that may crop up to catch out the unwary.

As for the warning buzzer, there is a cut off date for that, its only mandatory on vehicles after a certain construction date, they are not expensive to buy and are dead easy to retrofit.

hughesy said:

I don't think you can just put L plates on, sit someone in the passenger seat and off you go with your 3500kg trailer. Well if you can it makes a ****in mockery of the regs doesn't it?

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Yes, you can. Much the same as a 17year old can stick Ls on daddys aston martin, plonk daddy in the passenger seat and drive off having never sat behind the wheel in his life. Same applies for all the other categories, long as the regs are met, L plates, qualified supervisor, etc, of you go.

byway-basher said:

Yes, you can. Much the same as a 17year old can stick Ls on daddys aston martin, plonk daddy in the passenger seat and drive off having never sat behind the wheel in his life. Same applies for all the other categories, long as the regs are met, L plates, qualified supervisor, etc, of you go.

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Ok I stand corrected then. So I can stick some L plates on me disco, jump in the passenger seat and my lad who's just passed his test can tow me 16 foot flatbed with a disco or whatever on it.

I think qualified supervisor is the key point here, I know my dad used to be a HGV examiner so he may still hold the qualifications Hopefully We will see

I got work to put me through my towing test

Jai, its not so much the towing thats an issue, its everything else! You are basically taking your driving test again, but with a trailer behind you and a few trailer moves.

I failed 1st time... speeding! doh!

Got it now though

G

byway-basher said:

Snip

As for the warning buzzer, there is a cut off date for that, its only mandatory on vehicles after a certain construction date, they are not expensive to buy and are dead easy to retrofit.

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Construction and use regs require your vehicle to be fitted with some means of informing you that your indicators are or aren't working. This is usually a buzzer linked to the indicator circuit, or a warning light on the dashboard of the towing vehicle. Some vehicles report this by exception (i.e. the warning light only comes on if the indicators aren't working) this is acceptable for your test but as most buzz or flash when the indicators are used you should know you have this type of system in case the examiner questions why the warning light isn't showing positively (i.e. when the indicators are working).

jai_landrover said:

I think qualified supervisor is the key point here, I know my dad used to be a HGV examiner so he may still hold the qualifications Hopefully We will see

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Qualified supervisor rules are relevant here; over 21 and have held that type of licence for at least three years - in this case it could be through passing a B+E test of through aquired rights (grandfather rights given to those who passed pre 1997)

hughesy said:

Ok I stand corrected then. So I can stick some L plates on me disco, jump in the passenger seat and my lad who's just passed his test can tow me 16 foot flatbed with a disco or whatever on it.

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as far as i know - while learning to tow, the trailer has to be unladen. thats wot my lgv instructer told me few years back

si844 said:

as far as i know - while learning to tow, the trailer has to be unladen. thats wot my lgv instructer told me few years back

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But you could rock up with a pikey wagon. It wouldnt be "loaded" but still have some wheight, and be suitable for the test as its large enough to impare vision.

The trailer has to be unladen for the B+E test, but I can't find anything that says it has to be unladen whilst under instruction. Not that the direct.gov website is at all clear really, and dvla refer almost everything back to there now.

Hi,

With a B-only licence, you can tow a trailer which has a MGW of not more than the unladen (NOT kerb) weight of the tow car. The trailer MGW (or whatever alias) should be shown on a plate on your trailer, but probably not illegal (at present) if the trailer weighs less than something like 1100kg and doesn't have a plate. But safest to fit a down graded plate.

BUT there is an over-riding factor ..... the combination must not weigh more than 3500kg MGW combined. At first sight, the ideal combination is a tow car with MGW of 1750kg towing a trailer of 1750kg MGW.

I think all references to 85% of kerb weight is a RECOMENDATION by the Caravan Club, and refers ONLY to caravans and INEXPERIENCED drivers.

Your Group B licence also mentions 750kg. I THINK that means you can tow a 750kg trailer with a car weighing less than 750kg unladen. Citroen 2CV? But the manufacturers put their own limit on what the car can tow, get a fine and endorsement if you exceed it. Older cars didn't have a max towing limit. ????

Search Ebay Autos for TRAILER PLATES or VIN PLATES. Circa £5. Then buy a set of number stamps from TOOLSTATION (google) for just a smidgen under £10. Then buy something else, cos postage is free over £10.

602

I was talking to my uncle yesterday about this and he pointed a few facts out. He is a DSA HGV instructor and he pointed out a few legalities about towing trailers and going off the ratings that are printed in your owners manual. For example, Land Rovers have a maximum towing capability of 3500kg. However there is no law stating it a copper can give you a tug for towing 3500kg as the guidelines in the uk state that 'the laden weight of the towed vehicle must not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle' So although your book says it's capable, and it is, you could well end up with a fine of some sort, or even just the inconvenience of not being able to complete your journey. Also the law states that any vehicle with a combined weight of 3500kg are subject to drivers hours and should have a Tachograph fitted. If you don't then it would seem as though your driving with no insurance. Earlier this year i towed about 3300kg with a D3 which would put me well over the limit. He actually gave me an example of a local guy who did get stopped and went to court for it. not sure what the outcome was but i would guess that at minimum it would be a hefty fine. And remember if you did choose to ignore it, as i'm sure plenty have, and things go wrong, worse case someone is injured or dies. I'm pretty sure you would be looking at a prison sentence.
It seems a bit over the top to me but rules are there for a reason, and once you have done the test you have it for ever. My advice, go and do it, i'd be lost if i couldn't tow.

w3526602 said:

Hi,

With a B-only licence, you can tow a trailer which has a MGW of not more than the unladen (NOT kerb) weight of the tow car.

Unladen weight is the EC kerbweight to the best of my knowledge when the law looks at things these days. All to do with EU harmonisation. The difference between the two for clarity is 75kg and a 90% full fuel tank. So an average D1 is going to have an unladen weight of about 150kg below its published kerbweight. Most manufacturers only publish kerb weights, leaving Joe Average no idea what his unladen weight is.

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The trailer MGW (or whatever alias) should be shown on a plate on your trailer, but probably not illegal (at present) if the trailer weighs less than something like 1100kg and doesn't have a plate. But safest to fit a down graded plate.

BUT there is an over-riding factor ..... the combination must not weigh more than 3500kg MGW combined. At first sight, the ideal combination is a tow car with MGW of 1750kg towing a trailer of 1750kg MGW.

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This would not be legal for a B holder without +E. A trailer with a MAM of 1750kg is going to be far more than the unladen weight of a vehcle with a MGVW of 1750kg. I use MAM/MGVW as they are the recognised terms used elsewhere for trailer weights and licence restrictions

A 1500kg car with 500kg load capacity (2000kg MGVW) and a trailer with 1500kg MAM would be legal.

As a rule of thumb, if the trailer requires brakes, its probably illegal for a B only licence holder with any landrover bigger than a gaylander or perhaps a 90.

I think all references to 85% of kerb weight is a RECOMENDATION by the Caravan Club, and refers ONLY to caravans and INEXPERIENCED drivers.

Your Group B licence also mentions 750kg. I THINK that means you can tow a 750kg trailer with a car weighing less than 750kg unladen. Citroen 2CV? But the manufacturers put their own limit on what the car can tow, get a fine and endorsement if you exceed it. Older cars didn't have a max towing limit. ????

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No. the 750kg limit is for unbraked trailers. Simply any trailer with a MAM over 750kg must be braked. The rule about trailer MAM still being less than the unladen car weight still applies. There is also a small bit hidden somewhere in the regs that an unbraked trailer cannot have a MAM of more than 50% of the tow vehicle kerb weight, meaning a 750kg unbraked trailer with a Corsa to tow it is likely out.

There are also, as you state, manufacturers specifications to consider, they will define the max unbraked trailer weight for each vehicle.

A 750kg unbraked trailer is the heaviest way to get above the 3500kg limit, eg a transit van and small trailer - 4250kg.

The "85% rule" is indeed a recommendation, one that is supposed to have some hard science behind it as regards making the potentialy most stable combination, but I have never been able to find it.

accywingy said:

I was talking to my uncle yesterday about this and he pointed a few facts out. He is a DSA HGV instructor and he pointed out a few legalities about towing trailers and going off the ratings that are printed in your owners manual. For example, Land Rovers have a maximum towing capability of 3500kg. However there is no law stating it a copper can give you a tug for towing 3500kg as the guidelines in the uk state that 'the laden weight of the towed vehicle must not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle' So although your book says it's capable, and it is, you could well end up with a fine of some sort, or even just the inconvenience of not being able to complete your journey.

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I think the waters are being unintentionally muddied here.

Firstly can you clarify your uncle's job? I wasnt aware DSA had instructors, just examiners.

Guidelines mean nothing. You cannot be charged or convicted for breaching a guideline, only the law.

The law states with a B+E licence the driver can tow any combination up to 3500kg + 3500kg. Provided manufacturer weights allow.

The law states that the MAM must weigh less than the tow vehicle only where the licence holder has no +E entitlement.

Also the law states that any vehicle with a combined weight of 3500kg are subject to drivers hours and should have a Tachograph fitted.

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You forgot or were unaware of the "for commercial purposes" and "transport is part of the business" provisos for that statement. Its been covered if not in this towing thread then another on this site.

If you don't then it would seem as though your driving with no insurance. Earlier this year i towed about 3300kg with a D3 which would put me well over the limit.

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Limit of what? your licence? the trailer MAM? I doubt it was beyond the limits of the vehicle or any other legislation

He actually gave me an example of a local guy who did get stopped and went to court for it. not sure what the outcome was but i would guess that at minimum it would be a hefty fine.

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Got stopped and went to court for what exactly? Driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence? No insurance? Insecure load? Sheep rustling? Not to mention of course he may have been aquitted with no case to answer.

And remember if you did choose to ignore it, as i'm sure plenty have, and things go wrong, worse case someone is injured or dies. I'm pretty sure you would be looking at a prison sentence.
It seems a bit over the top to me but rules are there for a reason, and once you have done the test you have it for ever. My advice, go and do it, i'd be lost if i couldn't tow.

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Prison is a risk, but not as big a risk as it used to be, other than that the last bit here I do agree with in general.

This is all getting a bit too anal for me now

hughesy said:

This is all getting a bit too anal for me now

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I don't give a fook, cos I is an old git and passed me test in 1976.