Starting issues 2.25 Petrol

Hi All,
I have a 2.25L petrol engine which won't start. I have add many new parts to it such as starter solenoid, distributor, etc. etc. The battery is fairly new (bought to start a 110 2 times when I bought it).
Only the positive cable from the starter solenoid to the starter is old and the + cable from the battery to the other connection on the starter solenoid.

The situation is as follows:
On the new solenoid is on one side, the + of the starter motor mounted and on the other connection the + of the battery, alternator and feed to the wiring loom. The white/red starting wire is connected to the connection in between.
I have placed a new grounding strip from the starter motor mounting bold to the chassis (cleaned to bare metal with vaseline) also I have place a new grounding lead/strip from the negative battery terminal to the cleaned battery bracket.
There is no direct ground to the engine other than the strip from the chassis to the starter motor bolt into the flywheel housing.

When I turn the ignition the solenoid only clicks, yesterday it did click 60% of the starting attempts, now it's only clicking. I can't start the engine with the starting handle.
I have tried to bypass the solenoid by connecting both connections with a large screwdriver but nothing happend, not even a spark (contact was on).
I have installed the old starter solenoid but that even won't click. It was not connected to the bulkhead but does a starter solenoid even have tot have a ground connection?

I find it rather strange that after every attempt my battery level on my CTEK charger drops to no. 3 out of 7 which is completely charged. It was completely charged and in the meantime while I go have a coffee I put it on the charger also.

Any ideas?

Your description matches a flat battery. What's the battery voltage when you are trying to start the car?

Given the charger "reckons" the battery need recharging after these attempts, I'd suggest that your starter motor is seized.

Your remote solenoid will need an earth return to work.

can you post a picture or four of the engine bay - your description is very slightly confusing - and a picture is worth a thousand words !!

I have just added some photos in the begin post.
I will go measure the voltage too today

Ok so I've grabed my multi meter and measured the following:
Battery straight from the CTEK charger - contact off: 13.4V.
- Start attempt 1 with probes on the battery: 12.8V (solenoid clicks).
- Start attempt 2 with - probe on the battery & + on the startermoter solenoid connection: 12.7V (solenoid clicks).
- Battery level with probes on the battery and contact off: 12.8V.
- No. of volts with + probe on the battery and - on the starter grounding strip: 12.7V (other way around the same).

Tried to start with the ground connected tot the battery but with a direct starting cable on the + of the starter and touching the + terminal of the battery, nothing happend, not even a spark. I tried it with the contact on and off, made no difference.

Connecting the charger again the charging level was 3 again (was 7 - full) when i started measuring)

I'm a bit lost, tought it would be the earth but I measure the same as on the battery, thought it would be the older + cables but they seem fine too. The strange thing is that whatever I do I don't get sparks.
I can't imagine it will be the starter as it makes no sound at all and worked fine the last time, can test this when still mounted and connect another battery directly to the starter motor or should I completely disconnect the car battery then, or????

Cool. good pictures

I'd check the output of the solenoid - make sure it is actually working - I.E. connecting the battery +ve to the starter motor when you energise it.

Next thing I'd do if the above doesn't show what's wrong is remove the starter motor, and bench test it with your battery - be careful - as there's enough inertia to hurt you if the starter runs, and "escapes" and lands on your toes etc.....

Ah - posting at the same time - I think your starter is seized - take it off and bench test it as I suggested in post #5

Disco1BFG said:

Cool. good pictures

I'd check the output of the solenoid - make sure it is actually working - I.E. connecting the battery +ve to the starter motor when you energise it.

Next thing I'd do if the above doesn't show what's wrong is remove the starter motor, and bench test it with your battery - be careful - as there's enough inertia to hurt you if the starter runs, and "escapes" and lands on your toes etc.....

Click to expand...

Thanks, I have tested it with a starter cable connected tot the + of the starter moter and then connected it to the + of the battery, tried it when the contact was on and off and nothing happend. Is dind't tried to start is this way.
So you are saying is to leave the + of the battery connected to the solenoid and add a direct cable from the battery to the starter motors + en than try to start? Aren't you bypassing the solonoid this way so you still don't know if it works? Maybe I am full of sh*t right know, in that case I appologize in advance

RobertJ said:

So you are saying is to leave the + of the battery connected to the solenoid and add a direct cable from the battery to the starter motors + en than try to start? Aren't you bypassing the solonoid this way so you still don't know if it works? Maybe I am full of sh*t right know, in that case I appologize in advance

Click to expand...

Sorry, no - what I meant was that the contacts in the remote solenoid might be kaput - and whilst they might allow voltage through - there is not enough current to make the motor run...

You're NOT full of sh*t !! you're perhaps over thinking the problem a bit, that's all. We've all been there, done that and got the bl**dy T-Shirt !!

Does the starter motor run if you (carefully) connect the battery +ve to the input terminal? ( with the starter on the engine ) - this is perhaps easier if you were to connect the two heavy cables off the solenoid together - in mid air as it were - effectively mimicking the solenoid.... ( be careful !! )

If the motor doesn't run - you need to find out why, and then, I'd suggest working backwards from there. It might be something as simple as the brushes seized in their carrier - which will probably just be holding them far enough away from the commutator to stop the motor running. ( you can guess how I know all this )

good luck and be careful !!

Is the solenoid earthed?
You need to be methodical so firstly check all your earths using a multimeter, best way is connect one lead to the earth of the battery and with the multimeter set to continuity touch the other lead to the body of the starter motor & then test the solenoid by touching the body of the solenoid. Also check from the neg terminal of the battery to the chassis, the engine to the chassis etc. If you don't get continuity on any of these checks then sort those out first. Once you are happy everything is running to earth as it should then you can start testing individual components. Put the ignition on and then short across the two big terminals on the solenoid. If that doesn't get the starter motor spinning then it's most likely the starter motor is at fault. If it does get it spinning then it's most likely a solenoid fault. Just need to work through it methodically, ruling out one thing at a time. By the way those braided earth straps are pretty useless to be honest, you're much better off with heavy cable. From personal experience it's usually an earth problem.....

puddlejumper said:

From personal experience it's usually an earth problem.....

Click to expand...

Cobblers !! - it's ALWAYS and earth problem

puddlejumper said:

Is the solenoid earthed?
You need to be methodical so firstly check all your earths using a multimeter, best way is connect one lead to the earth of the battery and with the multimeter set to continuity touch the other lead to the body of the starter motor & then test the solenoid by touching the body of the solenoid. Also check from the neg terminal of the battery to the chassis, the engine to the chassis etc. If you don't get continuity on any of these checks then sort those out first. Once you are happy everything is running to earth as it should then you can start testing individual components. Put the ignition on and then short across the two big terminals on the solenoid. If that doesn't get the starter motor spinning then it's most likely the starter motor is at fault. If it does get it spinning then it's most likely a solenoid fault. Just need to work through it methodically, ruling out one thing at a time. By the way those braided earth straps are pretty useless to be honest, you're much better off with heavy cable. From personal experience it's usually an earth problem.....

Click to expand...

If I'm reading his posts correctly, then he has tried this..... I agree with everything you've said though

I'm still going with starter motor not wanting to play the game

Which, frankly is just not on - I reckon it needs a good stern talking to - wiv LR special tool #1

Disco1BFG said:

Sorry, no - what I meant was that the contacts in the remote solenoid might be kaput - and whilst they might allow voltage through - there is not enough current to make the motor run...

You're NOT full of sh*t !! you're perhaps over thinking the problem a bit, that's all. We've all been there, done that and got the bl**dy T-Shirt !!

Does the starter motor run if you (carefully) connect the battery +ve to the input terminal? ( with the starter on the engine ) - this is perhaps easier if you were to connect the two heavy cables off the solenoid together - in mid air as it were - effectively mimicking the solenoid.... ( be careful !! )

If the motor doesn't run - you need to find out why, and then, I'd suggest working backwards from there. It might be something as simple as the brushes seized in their carrier - which will probably just be holding them far enough away from the commutator to stop the motor running. ( you can guess how I know all this )

good luck and be careful !!

Click to expand...

puddlejumper said:

Is the solenoid earthed?
You need to be methodical so firstly check all your earths using a multimeter, best way is connect one lead to the earth of the battery and with the multimeter set to continuity touch the other lead to the body of the starter motor & then test the solenoid by touching the body of the solenoid. Also check from the neg terminal of the battery to the chassis, the engine to the chassis etc. If you don't get continuity on any of these checks then sort those out first. Once you are happy everything is running to earth as it should then you can start testing individual components. Put the ignition on and then short across the two big terminals on the solenoid. If that doesn't get the starter motor spinning then it's most likely the starter motor is at fault. If it does get it spinning then it's most likely a solenoid fault. Just need to work through it methodically, ruling out one thing at a time. By the way those braided earth straps are pretty useless to be honest, you're much better off with heavy cable. From personal experience it's usually an earth problem.....

Click to expand...

Yes I am thinking it's the starter too. As it won't move when I connect it directly (still mounted).
I checked al the earth connections before but just rechecked the continuity again between all the points you just named Puddlejumper, and they all give a solid continuity bleep on my multi meter, so earths are good.

I am going to remove the starter right now and bench test it like you said Disco1BFG. If I haven't responded by the end of the day i'm probably dead - no just kidding.


Still what bothers me is that when I connect the 2 solenoid terminals with a large screw driver (when the contact is on) I don't even get a tiny spark, I have done this before with another car and sparks where all over..

Ok so Starter is out and tested, dead as a doornail, ugh.. does this also explain why there are no sparks when I tried to connect the solenoid terminals with a screw driver?
Can I test the solenoid if it works correctly so I know everything is fine when I put in a new starter? (I assume this starter is beyond any rescue attempt)

RobertJ said:

Ok so Starter is out and tested, see here the result:

Dead as a doornail, ugh.. does this also explain why there are no sparks when I tried to connect the solenoid terminals with a screw driver?
Can I test the solenoid if it works correctly so I know everything is fine when I put in a new starter? (I assume this starter is beyond any rescue attempt)

Click to expand...

It was the lack of sparking when you shorted the solenoid which made me think the battery was kaput. However, 12.7V or so is absolutely fine.

The next place to look is in the end of the starter motor to check the commutator, brushes and their connections,

Just to be doubly sure, I would try another battery before stripping or buying another starter. I know it sounds improbable that a battery with 12.7 volts is at fault but if a spare battery is available it is an easy and cheap test.

Col

Could you run the "new battery" check by simply jump starting from another vehicle, or would the landy still see a dead battery despite the fact it's hooked up in parallel to a good battery?

To answer my own question, i guess you could jump straight to the starter + and earth onto the chassis or engine block.

RobertJ said:

I am going to remove the starter right now and bench test it like you said Disco1BFG. If I haven't responded by the end of the day i'm probably dead - no just kidding.

Click to expand...

Don't take this the wrong way, but It's a good job your starter is dead - otherwise you might be nursing an injury - your video is post #14 is a pretty dangerous way to test it - if it was working, it would have moved a LOT........ better held tight in a vice on a bench - then the chances of "escape" are reduced.....

RobertJ said:

Still what bothers me is that when I connect the 2 solenoid terminals with a large screw driver (when the contact is on) I don't even get a tiny spark, I have done this before with another car and sparks where all over..

Click to expand...

This is because you have not connected anything! - if the starter is "dead", then it's just a lump with a high dielectric strength - I.E. a "lump" of "insulation" - there's no current flow to cause a reaction ( which is where the sparks would come from - Lenz's Law )

Tall Ratbag said:

The next place to look is in the end of the starter motor to check the commutator, brushes and their connections,

Click to expand...

Agreed. I said this in post #9..... :-

Disco1BFG said:

It might be something as simple as the brushes seized in their carrier - which will probably just be holding them far enough away from the commutator to stop the motor running. ( you can guess how I know all this )

Click to expand...

RobertJ said:

Can I test the solenoid if it works correctly so I know everything is fine when I put in a new starter? (I assume this starter is beyond any rescue attempt)

Click to expand...

Forget the solenoid for now - get the starter free'd off - have a look in the brush case - search the web for how to check all this - it's been done a thousand times - it's what old inertia starters do.....

If all else fails:-

Disco1BFG said:

I reckon it needs a good stern talking to - wiv LR special tool #1

Click to expand...

Colthebrummie said:

Just to be doubly sure, I would try another battery before stripping or buying another starter. I know it sounds improbable that a battery with 12.7 volts is at fault but if a spare battery is available it is an easy and cheap test.

Col

Click to expand...

Rubins4 said:

Could you run the "new battery" check by simply jump starting from another vehicle, or would the landy still see a dead battery despite the fact it's hooked up in parallel to a good battery?

To answer my own question, i guess you could jump straight to the starter + and earth onto the chassis or engine block.

Click to expand...

It was the starter, IOW I also tested it with a new battery out of a VW which is 100% fine. And it didn't move a thing.

Disco1BFG said:

Don't take this the wrong way, but It's a good job your starter is dead - otherwise you might be nursing an injury - your video is post #14 is a pretty dangerous way to test it - if it was working, it would have moved a LOT........ better held tight in a vice on a bench - then the chances of "escape" are reduced.....

Click to expand...

Yes I know but I was on a safe distance.

I have a new starter which I will mount, so hope it starts very sweet! I will try to fix the old one and use it as a spare.

RobertJ said:

I have a new starter which I will mount,

Click to expand...

IMHO - Test it before you fit it - you can guess how I know about "new" stuff being DOA ........

Glad you were at a safe distance