Sickly engine question

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FX4S

FX4S

Member
Posts
76
Location
Sierning, Austria
Hello all - haven't been on in a long time because I haven't had any problems - until now!

A recap - I run a London Taxi with the LR Defender 2.5 NA diesel (with Sherpa timing case).
The engine was rebuilt by Turner Engineering about 18 months ago, and it has been running like a dream - even took it up the highest mountain road in Austria (bit of black smoke uphill on kickdown, but who cares) with no problem.
Over the last couple of weeks, I've noticed starting up was taking longer than it used to. It would normally glow and start as soon as the key was turned. But now, it takes a few turns before it catches - no problem I thought. Then, coming back home on the motorway recently, I heard a 'pop' noise, followed by a ticking noise, while at the same time, I started belching out white/blue smoke and lost power - on tickover, it sounded like a bag of spanners. I was able to get off the motorway and arrange a tow truck back home.
Immediate suspect was a timing problem with the injection pump - after removing the cooling system, I checked the timing marks on the crankshaft, camshaft and pump - all perfect. I have 2 spare injector pumps, so I put my original one back in and went back the timing mark set-up again, together with a locking pin in the side of the pump which fits into a notch in an internal part, so to the best of my knowledge, the timing is spot on. Bleeding the system is where I've hit a problem - the lifter pump primer lever has no bite to it - I've turned the motor by hand 1/8th turn at a time to see if the lifter pump lobe was causing the problem, but couldn't find a best position to pump the lever. I've managed to bleed the filter, and get fuel to come out of the bleed screw on top of the injector pump. Getting air free fuel up the pipes to the injectors is useless, so I've tried turning the engine over for more pressure - I can get #2 injector to drip diesel, but this ain't no hight pressure I'd expect from an injector pump!
It turns over, and "feels" like it wants to start, but I suspect either air somewhere, or there is no pressure/blockage somewhere?

So I'm back to the suspicion that either my old injector pump is playing silly buggers (worked fine before the engine rebuild), or my lifter pump isn't working - does the lifter provide such a high pressure supply to the injector pump? The fuel tank is new, and it has been running fine, so I'm open to suggestions of where I should look next?

Thanks for any help, hints or suggestions, and sorry for the long wall of text!
 
FX4S said:
Hello all - haven't been on in a long time because I haven't had any problems - until now!

A recap - I run a London Taxi with the LR Defender 2.5 NA diesel (with Sherpa timing case).
The engine was rebuilt by Turner Engineering about 18 months ago, and it has been running like a dream - even took it up the highest mountain road in Austria (bit of black smoke uphill on kickdown, but who cares) with no problem.
Over the last couple of weeks, I've noticed starting up was taking longer than it used to. It would normally glow and start as soon as the key was turned. But now, it takes a few turns before it catches - no problem I thought. Then, coming back home on the motorway recently, I heard a 'pop' noise, followed by a ticking noise, while at the same time, I started belching out white/blue smoke and lost power - on tickover, it sounded like a bag of spanners. I was able to get off the motorway and arrange a tow truck back home.
Immediate suspect was a timing problem with the injection pump - after removing the cooling system, I checked the timing marks on the crankshaft, camshaft and pump - all perfect. I have 2 spare injector pumps, so I put my original one back in and went back the timing mark set-up again, together with a locking pin in the side of the pump which fits into a notch in an internal part, so to the best of my knowledge, the timing is spot on. Bleeding the system is where I've hit a problem - the lifter pump primer lever has no bite to it - I've turned the motor by hand 1/8th turn at a time to see if the lifter pump lobe was causing the problem, but couldn't find a best position to pump the lever. I've managed to bleed the filter, and get fuel to come out of the bleed screw on top of the injector pump. Getting air free fuel up the pipes to the injectors is useless, so I've tried turning the engine over for more pressure - I can get #2 injector to drip diesel, but this ain't no hight pressure I'd expect from an injector pump!
It turns over, and "feels" like it wants to start, but I suspect either air somewhere, or there is no pressure/blockage somewhere?

So I'm back to the suspicion that either my old injector pump is playing silly buggers (worked fine before the engine rebuild), or my lifter pump isn't working - does the lifter provide such a high pressure supply to the injector pump? The fuel tank is new, and it has been running fine, so I'm open to suggestions of where I should look next?

Thanks for any help, hints or suggestions, and sorry for the long wall of text!
Click to expand...
lift pump doesnt provide high pressure usually 13psi and if system is fully primed injection pump will suck enough fuel through but wont if any sign of air,running like a bag of spanners seems more like an other issue ,injector,valve or head gasket etc
 
jamesmartin said:
lift pump doesnt provide high pressure usually 13psi and if system is fully primed injection pump will suck enough fuel through but wont if any sign of air,running like a bag of spanners seems more like an other issue ,injector,valve or head gasket etc
Click to expand...

Thanks Jamesmartin - I recall you helped me loads last time!
Will take off rocker box cover tomorrow and see if if I have any bent rods or sticky valves to start with. Hadn't noticed any loss of coolant, or oil in radiator, or overheating issues in the run up to this. I have a new lifter pump coming tomorrow anyway, so I may just fit that too because I like shiny stuff under the bonnet!
 
A quick question about the cam shaft - I notice there is a lobe on it which actuates the lifter pump arm. Does anyone know where the lobe is in relation to the markings (tdc?) on the crankshaft pulley wheel? I'd like to get the lobe on the opposite side to the pump, as I've noticed there is more up and down play of the primer lever when the lobe isn't resting against the inner lifter pump actuater arm! I can trial and error it by turning the crankshaft pulley with a big socket and sticking my finger in the hole in the block, but that would require removing the plate on which the lifter pump sits. Hope that made sense.
 
FX4S said:
A quick question about the cam shaft - I notice there is a lobe on it which actuates the lifter pump arm. Does anyone know where the lobe is in relation to the markings (tdc?) on the crankshaft pulley wheel? I'd like to get the lobe on the opposite side to the pump, as I've noticed there is more up and down play of the primer lever when the lobe isn't resting against the inner lifter pump actuater arm! I can trial and error it by turning the crankshaft pulley with a big socket and sticking my finger in the hole in the block, but that would require removing the plate on which the lifter pump sits. Hope that made sense.
Click to expand...
if you have no1 tdc with valves on the rock the lowest pat of lobe will face lift pump
 
Thanks jamesmartin!
All a little academic now as I think I have found the problem.
New lifter pump fitted and primed with NO air as per the diesel filter overspill pipe, or the blanked off plug on the top of the filter casing. Same for the bleed screw on top of the injector pump body. New lifter pump is working!
I've removed the rocker box cover, loosened the injectors to reduce compression, and totally removed the high pressure injection pipes to one side and turned the motor over - nothing "clunking", and all rockers go up and down nicely, so I'm assuming the push rods aren't bent, and that the valves aren't sticking.
What I DID notice that was quite worrying, is that diesel was only spitting out under pressure from #2!!
To check, I removed all the pipes from the back of the injector pump as well (none of them were blocked as I pumped brake cleaning spray through them to check, and I split a nail doing it, and that really hurts), and turned it over again. Still only #2 spitting out fuel under pressure at the 4 outlets on the back of the injector pump.
Removed the stop solenoid and removed the plunger and spring, and refitted it - still the same, #2 only getting a high pressure spurt of diesel!
This worries me because the reconditioned pump failed, and now my original pump has failed (could personally be to blame for trying to bleed the system with a seemingly knackered lifter pump) - would turning the injector pump dry/partially bled result in an internal failure resulting in not all the high pressure outlets getting a burst of fuel? Seems like my only solution is to get the pump checked and repaired (if possible) at our only CAV service centre here in Austria in my opinion - are you of the same opinion?
 
FX4S said:
Thanks jamesmartin!
All a little academic now as I think I have found the problem.
New lifter pump fitted and primed with NO air as per the diesel filter overspill pipe, or the blanked off plug on the top of the filter casing. Same for the bleed screw on top of the injector pump body. New lifter pump is working!
I've removed the rocker box cover, loosened the injectors to reduce compression, and totally removed the high pressure injection pipes to one side and turned the motor over - nothing "clunking", and all rockers go up and down nicely, so I'm assuming the push rods aren't bent, and that the valves aren't sticking.
What I DID notice that was quite worrying, is that diesel was only spitting out under pressure from #2!!
To check, I removed all the pipes from the back of the injector pump as well (none of them were blocked as I pumped brake cleaning spray through them to check), and turned it over again. Still only #2 spitting out fuel under pressure.
Removed the stop solenoid and removed the plunger and spring, and refitted it - still the same, #2 only getting a high pressure spurt of diesel!
This worries me because the reconditioned pump failed, and now my original pump has failed (could personally be to blame for trying to bleed the system with a seemingly knackered lifter pump) - would turning the injector pump dry/partially bled result in an internal failure resulting in not all the high pressure outlets getting a burst of fuel? Seems like my only solution is to get the pump checked and repaired (if possible) at our only CAV service centre here in Austria in my opinion - are you of the same opinion?
Click to expand...
yes sounds like poor injection pump, ive had supposed recon pumps fail quickly and old ones struggle with recon injectors
 
jamesmartin said:
yes sounds like poor injection pump, ive had supposed recon pumps fail quickly and old ones struggle with recon injectors
Click to expand...

Well injector pumps work for ages, and then die I guess - the recon one which I bought from the UK could have been reconned 5 or 10 years ago, I don't know - always fail outside warranty period!
My original pump could have been reconned, but it would have been done at least 10 years or more ago.
I have one I bought with a gearbox a couple of years ago, but the fuel coming out of it smells like shellac, so I don't know how long it has been sitting around, or if the innards will work.
I've just ordered new injectors from LR Direct.
Seems it's time to repair my original and the reconned one as a spare. Do you know of any reputable CAV pump specialists in the UK, or I will have to go with the one company here in Austria, together with my spare set of injectors!
As usual, thanks for your valuable help!
 
FX4S said:
Well injector pumps work for ages, and then die I guess - the recon one which I bought from the UK could have been reconned 5 or 10 years ago, I don't know - always fail outside warranty period!
My original pump could have been reconned, but it would have been done at least 10 years or more ago.
I have one I bought with a gearbox a couple of years ago, but the fuel coming out of it smells like shellac, so I don't know how long it has been sitting around, or if the innards will work.
I've just ordered new injectors from LR Direct.
Seems it's time to repair my original and the reconned one as a spare. Do you know of any reputable CAV pump specialists in the UK, or I will have to go with the one company here in Austria, together with my spare set of injectors!
As usual, thanks for your valuable help!
Click to expand...
i do,my brother in law is ,he does all mine
 
Hello folks! Time for an update which, as you can guess, that means things ain't running smoothly at the moment.
In July last year, I bought a new pump from Mick Ogdens, and it was running fine up until last weekend. All of the sudden, it just died (got that 'feeling' whilst driving just before it died, that something wasn't right - seemed like the motor was being starved of fuel). After a few turns, the motor runs again, but the tick-over is erratic and will sometimes rev quite high even though the throttle is at rest position and the throttle cable isn't sticking, and when driving off, it just dies after about 200 yards or so - after turning it over again, it restarts and does the same thing. Taxi forum members suggest a split fuel pipe putting air into the pump somewhere from the lifter pump, filter, or injector body, or, the injector pump governor is playing up - any suggestions? The pump has a years guarantee, so I'm not fussed about returning it for diagnosis if need be, albeit the amount of work involved in removing the bloody thing! Appreciate any suggestions - have a good Sunday!
 
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