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Shredded timing belt 2002 Freelander KV6 - need help

Discussion in 'Freelander' started by kim_lombard, Oct 16, 2010.

  1. kim_lombard

    kim_lombard New Member

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    I just bought this as a project car. It has 85k miles. I loosened the timing belt cover and the timing belt is just shredded. Actually broken. the two rear camshaft belts look good. When I loosened the timing belt cover, a couple of ball bearings rolled out. . .

    So, the question is - what do I have to do to determine the extent of the damage? I know that this is an interference engine, am I fooling myself hoping that there is no head or cylinder damage?

    I removed both intake manifolds. I can't visually see any bent valves.

    The crankshaft is in the safe position. Is it safe to rotate the cam shafts on each head?

    How far should I tear it down?

    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2010
  2. disco_mikey

    disco_mikey Active Member

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    If the belt has shredded, there will be bent valves. Heads off to find out the extent of damage, or I seen a bare engine from a Rover 75 on Ebay this morning for much cheapness. Could be a better bet than wasting time with the old engine
     
  3. kim_lombard

    kim_lombard New Member

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    I have the front head off. No real visible damage to head or pistons. I can see "kiss marks" where the valves contacted the piston but nothing more. Please advise. I can't buy the engine, since I live in Sacramento, CA USA. Does that mean new valves are required? What is the most likely way to proceed?
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2010
  4. disco_mikey

    disco_mikey Active Member

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    Ah, never noticed that. Depends if the valve guides are damaged. Best bet is to find a good valve with no damage and see if it slides smoothly in the guides, and there is no excess play side to side in the stem

    Alternatively, new guides also, but it starts getting quite expensive at that point
     
  5. kim_lombard

    kim_lombard New Member

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    The timing belt tensioner roller is definitely the weak part. Major scoring on the smooth surface. As I mentioned, this caused the timing belt to literaly shred. I will have to vacuum up the debris.

    When I look at the head from a different angle and upon further inspection - I see that there is a nice little bend under the valve head in the stems.

    I don't see any cracks in the piston head or sleeves or damage to the valve guides. Hopefully I can get both rebuilt.

    The car is worth saving, I think. Body and interior in great shape. Just this one little problem. . .

    Chatting about this has helped, requiring me to look further.

    Thanks for this forum and your response.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2010
  6. kim_lombard

    kim_lombard New Member

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    Both heads are off. Bent valves on both. No other visible damage. Piston tops and cylinder sleeves look ok.

    What other kind of damage can I expect? Are these rebuildable? Can I get away with just replacing the valves or is it common for the timing belt failure to case damage to camshafts as well?

    Just trying to find out prior to spending any additional monies on this.

    thanks
     
  7. Hippo

    Hippo Lord Hippo

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    Below is a picture of the set-up of your engine. I changed the cam belts on mine last year. Access is a bit of a pain. First motor I’ve ever done belts on. Took a little over the book time for me to complete it.

    You’ll have to judge for yourself if it’s worth repair, or strip and sell parts. Value of car now, as opposed to value when fixed.

    To set up the timing correctly you’ll need a locking kit. Without it, it’s near impossible. There’s no marks on the engine for correct set-up, and you can’t take the short cut route of marking up the old belt with markers and transferring them to the new belt, as your old one is fooked.

    Laser 4577 is the cheaper version of the locking kit at UK £150 on ebay. Buy it, use it, and resell on ebay for the same price approx.

    The inlet camshaft gears push onto a small hub. The hub then pushes onto the camshafts. The locking set fit’s into the hub, and the other end locates in the exhaust camshaft (remove cap seal to locating hole). That’s how the timing is set up. Hence both camshaft gears are held in the correct place with the locking tools, the crankshaft gear is in the correct place using the V marker on it, against the marker arrow on the oil pump housing behind it, and not the safe position shown on the crankshaft auxiliary belt pulley, as that’s a nat’s cock out. Also you don't need to buy a auxilary pulley wheel removal tool, as the the laser kit comes with a crankshaft locking pin, which fits in the engine block/fly wheel. Hence use that to remove the 22mm nut on the crankshaft.

    Good luck if you go ahead with the repair.

    [​IMG]

    tool not fitted in the exhaust on this one, but you can see what I mean:

    [​IMG]

    Front belt

    [​IMG]

    Rear belt with tool fitted – 2 of these to do. Markers on both gears should be inward pointing to each other, when changing. If they're outward pointing, rotate the crankshaft gear a full turn which will solve this.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. kim_lombard

    kim_lombard New Member

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    I have completed the head rebuild on the KV6. I purchased the Laser 4577 Timing Tool Kit off ebay/uk and used that to time it.

    When I did the timing, I had the engine locked using the locking pin. (I forgot your previous advice shown in this post). The Laser set that I have has two sets of camshaft positioning tools (one for the 2.0 engine and one for the 2.5 KV6). The 2.5 set is offset slightly.

    The engine starts and runs great. Only problem is top end noise coming from the front head area. If I overfill with oil it is reduced some. The noise is most noticeable when cold and parked and at idle rpm.

    No DTC (diagnostic trouble codes) showing on my scanner. Spark advance showing between 7 and 9 degrees on scanner while at idle.

    Could this be a timing issue?

    Thanks, in advance.

    Kim Lombard
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2010
  9. Hippo

    Hippo Lord Hippo

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    I had a similar issue when I knocked the timing out by 1 tooth on the rear bank. 1 tooth out is enough to get a frightening tapping noise. Turned out to be a stone went round the belt. My engine was a bit muddy. Must have fell into the belt when putting it all back together. Front bank was ok.

    Once I’d taken it apart and set it up again, the noise had dropped significantly. A mate came round and said it just needed a drive. Faced with a potentially ****ed engine (peeps always tell me it’s ****) I took it for a drive. I’d spent a little over the 5.1 hours book time to do this job. Noise cleared to my surprise. He told me it just needed oil to circulate. Haven’t a clue on this. I would act with caution if following this. Personally I only did mine as I’d been through it to the extent I was certain it was ok.

    The marker on the crankshaft gear to the oil pump housing can be slightly out, with the locking pin in, which puts the other gears ½ a tooth out, which is also an issue. This could mean you set it up to the nearest tooth, ½ out, + ½ making it 1 tooth out, when connecting to the nearest tooth. Hence fine tuning the crankshaft gear with the locking pin removed to get the V lined up perfectly with the arrow behind it, could be the solution. You’d need to take it apart, then align the crankshaft gear to the V, then see if the timing tools fit in the camshaft gears ok. If they’re out, then you have a potential solution.

    [​IMG]

    I’m not an expert on cam belts, and this was the first one I’ve done. If you like I can have a look at the spark advance on mine. When cold?

    Something I wrote at the time:

    Fit the main timing belt in an anti-clockwise direction, keeping the belt tort as it passes from the crankshaft gear, up and over the front timing belt idler pulley. Hold the timing belt tort and as you look towards the front camshaft gears, turn the left camshaft gear fully clockwise first. Keeping the timing belt tort, try to secure it into the camshaft gear teeth. Turn the camshaft gear anticlockwise just enough to allow the timing belt teeth to slot into the camshaft gear teeth, only if necessary. Support the timing belt in place with a soft wedge. Keep the timing belt tort as you position it round/under the water pump pulley and up towards the even bank camshaft gear. Hold the timing belt tort and as you look towards the front camshaft gears, turn the even bank camshaft gear fully clockwise first. Keeping the timing belt tort, try to secure it into the camshaft gear teeth. Turn the camshaft gear anticlockwise just enough to allow the timing belt teeth to slot into the camshaft gear teeth, only if necessary. Support the timing belt in place with a soft wedge. Keep the timing belt tort as you position it round/over the timing belt tensioner pulley. At the this point the belt should be fitted round all the gears/pulleys with any slack left in the timing belt located round the tensioner pulley wheel. Move the timing belt tensioner pulley wheel clockwise towards the timing belt. Pivot the automatic tensioner towards the timing belt tensioner pulley wheel bracket. Check the rear inlet and exhaust camshaft gears are correctly aligned on both odd and even banks. If all is ok, fit the timing belt automatic tensioner top bolt - 10mm 25Nm - and tighten both timing belt automatic tensioner bolts. Remove the 1.5mm pin from the timing belt tensioner to release the compression and allow it to take up the slack of the timing belt. DON’T remove the hex nut in the tensioner pulley wheel itself, as this is set to keep the tension correct at the factory.
     
  10. kim_lombard

    kim_lombard New Member

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    Just a final note on this project. I found out the the "noise" was the two rear timing belts slapping on their covers. Once I replaced both with new belts (now all four belts have been replaced with new), the car sounds like new and runs great!

    I've put several hundred miles on it now, since the rebuild of the heads, and it's running strong. Certainly a learning experience for me, but rewarding never the less. I'm glad that I took the time to do the job correctly.

    Thanks for this forum. I doubt that I would have been successful without the research that I was able to perform here.
     
  11. CharlesY

    CharlesY Well-Known Member

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    Think nothing of it.
    Most of the guys and gals on this forum have little better to do than help Merkins with Freelanders,

    CharlesY
     
  12. knoxethan

    knoxethan New Member

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    hi
    would you have info on the timing belt marks for 2.0 99 model freelander, pictures to show positions and instruction how to do it
     
  13. CharlesY

    CharlesY Well-Known Member

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    You might need to give Hippo a prod to wake him up as this is an old thread.
    Maybe even a PM ?
     
  14. Hippo

    Hippo Lord Hippo

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    I saw it on another fred and emailed him earlier. I have a copy of the auto data book which I've sent. Goes through the steps and what to do. Well sort of. I've only ever done a v6. Found the L series at the same time so took a copy.
     
  15. CharlesY

    CharlesY Well-Known Member

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    Hey, great stuff!

    I loved that diagram of the Hippo's V6 motor.

    That alone would put me off ever having one.
    Someone DESIGNED that and thought he was being clever!

    Does that V6 have hydraulic tappets? Some of them take ages to pump up and make a BAD NOISE while they do it.
     
  16. Hippo

    Hippo Lord Hippo

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    Yes they does. From the rave:

    Hydraulic Tappets
    Self-adjusting, lightweight, hydraulic tappets are fitted on top of each valve and are operated directly by the camshaft. The valve stem oil seals are moulded onto a metal base which also acts as the valve spring seat on the cylinder head.

    Just looked in the rave and the td4, 1.8 and v6 all have hydraulic tappets. The pic you mentioned is from the rave disk.

    When I put mine back together after replacing the timing belts I managed to drop a small stone in the main timing belt and when I started it up it went round the belt and knocked the rear camshaft (I fink) out. Engine bay was a bit dirty from orf roading, which is where I fink the stone came from. Very loud knocking from the engine when I started it. Had to take it all apart and re-fit the belt again. Put back and started again. Knocking again, but not as loud as before. Now bearing in mind it had the oil removed for 4 days, it would have had to lude up the engine when starting/running. Asked an old bloke we know and he said sometimes they need to be run and the knocking will go. Now I thought I’d fekked the engine because I always hear horror stories about them so I took it for a drive. Might as well screw it proper… At 40mph after 1 mile the knocking went went. Purred like never before. I’ve never really been confident it what happened. Would that be due to the pumping up you refer too, or did something I bend with the stone incident unbend itself?
     
  17. jamesmartin

    jamesmartin Well-Known Member

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    most engines have hydraulic tappets as does td5
     
  18. CharlesY

    CharlesY Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that is what happens. It can make a terrible noise, and most drivers would switch off and send for help!

    With all multi-cylinder engines it is inevitable that some of the valves are held open when the engine is stopped. This means some of the followers are under full valve spring pressure, and those followers WILL slowly close up on themselves.

    In hydraulic followers it is not all SOLID METAL operating the valves as there is in say a 200 tdi. The hydraulic follower is like a garage jack - it is TRAPPED OIL between the two main parts (like a telescope) that makes the follower "solid" to lift the valve.

    I bet you can see what's coming now.

    To operate, the follower must first be filled with oil, completely free of air bubbles. Until it is, the "valve clearance" will be up to a quarter of an inch and it makes a VERY BAD NOISE.

    It may take as much as 10 or even 15 minutes to get the followers filled and up to engine oil pressure. (My Saab 900 driver's manual says not to worry until after 15 minutes but best keep engine speed down!)

    Once they are filled, engine running, and oil pressure up, there should be ZERO clearance between the cam lobes and the followers, which makes for a very quiet engine, and no need to adjust tappets. When the engines are built in the factory, the followers are always pre-filled with oil.

    Hydraulic followers are usually designed to "leak down" slowly so that there is oil moving in and out to keep them clean inside. As they age, they will probably leak down sooner, and may rattle a bit after the car has been sitting for a while.

    Does that make sense?

    I have a hydraulic follower loose here and can open it up for a pic if that might be interesting. They all work the same way.
     
  19. Hippo

    Hippo Lord Hippo

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    Wow that’s a brilliant explanation. Thanks for the offer of a pic. If you’re opening it up it would be good to see if it’s not too much hassle or going to damage something. I have to admit with mine I’d got to the stage of try it and see. I was certain the belts were on right. Was my first belt change. It’s the one part of the instruction I pieced together front loads of different sources which I didn’t know about in advance of it happening. It was 11pm and I’d been on it since early morning. I remember telling it if it wanted to live it had to fix itself. :eek:
     
  20. CharlesY

    CharlesY Well-Known Member

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    That is a sweeping generalisation and is almost certainly not correct.

    However, the modern tendency is towards using hydraulic followers.