Responsible off roading by Top Gear

Glad to see Top Gear are promoting responsible off-roading, and giving
the rest of the world a positive image of our sport, by driving the
Discovery up a bloody Scottish mountain. As I write, Clarkson is
"flooring it" (his words) up the summit.

That's great, I bet the ramblers and Ken Livingstone are very impressed.

I hope they asked the land owner's permission at least...

I'm also dubious that safe winching techniques involve holding the winch
cable in one hand whilst the vehicle is winching itself. I thought the
approved Land Rover technique involved standing well away from the winch
cable, not holding the damn thing.

David

David French wrote:

> Glad to see Top Gear are promoting responsible off-roading, and giving
> the rest of the world a positive image of our sport, by driving the
> Discovery up a bloody Scottish mountain. As I write, Clarkson is
> "flooring it" (his words) up the summit.
>
> That's great, I bet the ramblers and Ken Livingstone are very impressed.
>
> I hope they asked the land owner's permission at least...
>
> I'm also dubious that safe winching techniques involve holding the winch
> cable in one hand whilst the vehicle is winching itself. I thought the
> approved Land Rover technique involved standing well away from the winch
> cable, not holding the damn thing.
>

I was watching that - if you had a look, they were doing that until the line
was under full tension and not touching it while it was under load.

I suspect they probably did have the landowners permission, although the
landowner was quite likely to be the Crown anyway up there.

I'd like to be able to try that kind of terrain, but without the landowners
permission it's just not happening. Fortunately I know a few landowners in
that part of the world and have family working in estate management. Maybe
worth an ask.

At least he was going over peat bogs rather than ripping up footpaths.

I have a sneaky suspicion that my car would handle that terrain at least as
well as the D3 without the faffing around with the terrain control rubbish.
And without the megabucks pricetags.

I was somewhat less impressed with the "Let's use diesel to start a fire" he
did - that's just bloody stupid.

P.
--
If Mind over Matter is a Matter of Course
Does it Matter if Nobody Minds?

In article <[email protected]>,
"Paul S. Brown" <[email protected]> wrote:

> > I'm also dubious that safe winching techniques involve holding the winch
> > cable in one hand whilst the vehicle is winching itself. I thought the
> > approved Land Rover technique involved standing well away from the winch
> > cable, not holding the damn thing.
> >
>
> I was watching that - if you had a look, they were doing that until the line
> was under full tension and not touching it while it was under load.

Are you sure? I was fairly convinced at one point the chap had his hand
on the cable whilst the cable was taught and the car was moving. But I
am open to correction.

> I suspect they probably did have the landowners permission, although the
> landowner was quite likely to be the Crown anyway up there.

I'm thinking back to the time they drove their Toyota into a tree in a
churchyard. Without anybody's permission. Sounds like a bit of a
liberty to me If they didn't get permission this time round, there's
going to be a very angry landowner on the phone to the BBC tomorrow...

In <david.french-0B71D9.20585707112004@no-dns-yet-212-23-3-119.zen.co.
uk> David French wrote:
> Glad to see Top Gear are promoting responsible off-roading, and giving
> the rest of the world a positive image of our sport, by driving the
> Discovery up a bloody Scottish mountain. As I write, Clarkson is
> "flooring it" (his words) up the summit.

To be fair, it's only the sort of thing that off road drivers do on a
regular basis. Basically if he's driving on private land with the land
owners permission. I don't see what's wrong with that myself unless we
are to start being ashamed of our hobby.

> That's great, I bet the ramblers and Ken Livingstone are very
> impressed.

Ken Livingstone shouldn't have a problem with it at all, if anything he
should applaud them for showing it being used properly instead of using
it as a private school bus. The ramblers are a bunch of sour faced
wingers who wouldn't be happy with any part of the program. I'm amazed
they can still use that old airfield without the ramblers trying to slap
a right to roam order on it and insisting that all that tyre squealing
and smoke is ruining their quiet enjoyment of it. Even a mouldy bobble
hat and a wurther's original can't cover up the smell of all that
burning rubber.

> I hope they asked the land owner's permission at least...

I would assume so.

> I'm also dubious that safe winching techniques involve holding the
> winch cable in one hand whilst the vehicle is winching itself. I
> thought the approved Land Rover technique involved standing well away
> from the winch cable, not holding the damn thing.

My thoughts too when I watched it the first time but to be fair it looks
like they've done a bit of judicious editing of the sound and film
tracks. At the point that the guy in front is holding the winch rope I
don't think they are actually winching the cable in under tension. If
you watch it again, note that the vehicle appears to be free (and static)
at that point and they are reeling the cable back in. The guy with his
hand on the rope is tensioning it so it spools correctly. The vehicle is
then driven forward before they've finished and he continues to take up
the slack but this time it's more obvious than before that the rope
behind him is slack.

When I first saw it my reaction was "what's that pratt doing holding the
rope while it's under tension" and had to rewind it (Sky+ is great )
a couple of times to verify it. Of course if he was actually holding the
cable under tension then that would explain the lack of a winch blanket/
damper. When HSE come along and say "where's your winch blanket ?" the
crew turn around and point at the guy being paid minimum wage to hold
the cable while the best part of 3 tonnes of Land Rover hauls itself out
of a hole It's difficult to tell from the cuts whether it really is
under tension or not, having watched it a few times I'm about 60 percent
confident that it wasn't under tansion.

He did the same trick on the second pull where the driver wasn't about
to stop once he'd got forward momentum and the guy holding the winch
rope out of the way was doing his best not to get run over ! Paul will
no doubt sympathise with that as I regularly drive at him, quietly
confident he will get himself and my winch rope out from under the
wheels before I get there... so far he's succeeded or I've stopped in
time !

Having said all that I'm not convinced they actually winched it out of
there in the way suggested by the filming. (on the first pull anyway)
I've been using plough ground anchors for years in competition and IME
it's virtually impossible to get one to hold on a slope like that,
particularly where the vehicle is pointing nose down in relation to the
slope. The angle of the winch rope tends to just pull the plough out of
the ground as it pulls it up rather than along. In that situation we'd
have used the plough first (just in case) but normally would end up
hammering ground anchors into the ground with a sledge hammer. Note that
they show the plough being set and dragging about 6 feet then they cut
back to the Disco and hey presto it's moving again.

cheers

Dave W.
http://www.yorkshireoffroadclub.net/

David French vaguely muttered something like ...
> Glad to see Top Gear are promoting responsible off-roading, and giving
> the rest of the world a positive image of our sport, by driving the
> Discovery up a bloody Scottish mountain. As I write, Clarkson is
> "flooring it" (his words) up the summit.

I've just come home after watching shed-loads of Landrovers and sundry other
vehicles do just that at Loversall ... If it's with the landowners
permission, there's nothing wrong with it ..

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules !!!
"A tosser is a tosser, no matter what mode of transport they're using."

> Are you sure? I was fairly convinced at one point the chap had his hand
> on the cable whilst the cable was taught and the car was moving. But I
> am open to correction.
>

Yup, Id agree, on the first winch the monkey was standing right by it when
the achor was on full load, total pratt. I hope it wasnt a Land Rover
employee.

Tim

....

On Sun, 7 Nov 2004 22:30:04 -0000, "Paul - xxx"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I've just come home after watching shed-loads of Landrovers and sundry other
>vehicles do just that at Loversall ... If it's with the landowners
>permission, there's nothing wrong with it ..

Especially so when that land owner is Matt Lee I guess

On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 21:13:36 +0000, "Paul S. Brown"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I have a sneaky suspicion that my car would handle that terrain at least as
>well as the D3 without the faffing around with the terrain control rubbish.
>And without the megabucks pricetags.

"The computer works out that I need to have CDL and selects low ratio
for me" - now where's the fun in that? My concern with the new id-iot
interface is that it will most certainly encourage rich ****wits to go
and test their new toy after the skool run. I doubt they'll be
bothered joining a club and will have little or no knowledge of RoW
issues. "Ah, there's an open gate, I'll just drive up that hill..."

I did like the subtle (or not so) little digs at Ray Mears. There's a
little 'history' here, following Mears and Clarkson having a little
disagreement at a BBC junket a year or so ago. I don't believe the
gauntlet was ever thrown, but an 'urban survival' discussion nearly
led to an interesting short series of films. I think Clarksons
argument was something along the lines of "I may be a lazy bastard,
but I'd survive better than you in Doncaster on a Friday night".
Mears of course, being ex SAS... ;-)

Mother" <"@ {m} @ vaguely muttered something like ...
> On Sun, 7 Nov 2004 22:30:04 -0000, "Paul - xxx"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I've just come home after watching shed-loads of Landrovers and sundry
>> other vehicles do just that at Loversall ... If it's with the landowners
>> permission, there's nothing wrong with it ..
>
> Especially so when that land owner is Matt Lee I guess

Heheheh ...

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules !!!
"A tosser is a tosser, no matter what mode of transport they're using."

Mother" <"@ {m} @ vaguely muttered something like ...
> On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 21:13:36 +0000, "Paul S. Brown"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I have a sneaky suspicion that my car would handle that terrain at least
>> as well as the D3 without the faffing around with the terrain control
>> rubbish. And without the megabucks pricetags.
>
> "The computer works out that I need to have CDL and selects low ratio
> for me" - now where's the fun in that? My concern with the new id-iot
> interface is that it will most certainly encourage rich ****wits to go
> and test their new toy after the skool run. I doubt they'll be
> bothered joining a club and will have little or no knowledge of RoW
> issues. "Ah, there's an open gate, I'll just drive up that hill..."

Heheheh, not an issue I'd thought about, but eminently plausibe. It just
needs a few people to get this idea and we'll all have to find a new hobby
.... or buy land ..

> I did like the subtle (or not so) little digs at Ray Mears. There's a
> little 'history' here, following Mears and Clarkson having a little
> disagreement at a BBC junket a year or so ago. I don't believe the
> gauntlet was ever thrown, but an 'urban survival' discussion nearly
> led to an interesting short series of films. I think Clarksons
> argument was something along the lines of "I may be a lazy bastard,
> but I'd survive better than you in Doncaster on a Friday night".
> Mears of course, being ex SAS... ;-)

As I come from Doncaster, moved away for 20 odd years, and now live back
near Doncaster again, I'd say SAS training is a pretty good requirement for
Friday nights ... Clarkson, and I know he comes from these 'ere parts, would
probably only survive if he came in driving the Disco, stayed in it, and
buggered off sharpish like ...

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules !!!
"A tosser is a tosser, no matter what mode of transport they're using."

Dave White wrote:
> uk> David French wrote:
>
>>Glad to see Top Gear are promoting responsible off-roading, and giving
>>the rest of the world a positive image of our sport, by driving the
>>Discovery up a bloody Scottish mountain. As I write, Clarkson is
>>"flooring it" (his words) up the summit.
>
> To be fair, it's only the sort of thing that off road drivers do on a
> regular basis. Basically if he's driving on private land with the land
> owners permission. I don't see what's wrong with that myself unless we
> are to start being ashamed of our hobby.

Hear hear.

>>That's great, I bet the ramblers and Ken Livingstone are very
>>impressed.
>
> Ken Livingstone shouldn't have a problem with it at all, if anything he
> should applaud them for showing it being used properly instead of using

Exactly. Besides, he's London - not Scotland.

> it as a private school bus. The ramblers are a bunch of sour faced
> wingers who wouldn't be happy with any part of the program. I'm amazed
> they can still use that old airfield without the ramblers trying to slap
> a right to roam order on it and insisting that all that tyre squealing
> and smoke is ruining their quiet enjoyment of it. Even a mouldy bobble
> hat and a wurther's original can't cover up the smell of all that
> burning rubber.

Don't get me started on the bloody ramblers. I live in SW Scotland,
where the only neighbour within a mile is the farm that used to belong
to our estate. Thanks to the ramblers that farm had to cull its herd
during the FMD epidemic (and bloody DEFRA put the pyre right on top of
our private water supply - from the purest spring water I've ever seen
to dangerous dioxin levels overnight!). Thanks to the ramblers we get
footprints through our orchard, crisp packets in the spinney, and gates
being left open so we get cowpats on the front lawn.

Ramblers are just townies who think they're being outdoorsy. *Real*
outdoor people understand that nature can be enjoyed just as well - and
in considerably greater comfort - from the back of a Land Rover, with a
nice picknick and the door open.

>>I'm also dubious that safe winching techniques involve holding the
>>winch cable in one hand whilst the vehicle is winching itself. I
>>thought the approved Land Rover technique involved standing well away
>>from the winch cable, not holding the damn thing.
>
> My thoughts too when I watched it the first time but to be fair it looks
> like they've done a bit of judicious editing of the sound and film
> tracks. At the point that the guy in front is holding the winch rope I
> don't think they are actually winching the cable in under tension. If
> you watch it again, note that the vehicle appears to be free (and static)
> at that point and they are reeling the cable back in. The guy with his
> hand on the rope is tensioning it so it spools correctly. The vehicle is
> then driven forward before they've finished and he continues to take up
> the slack but this time it's more obvious than before that the rope
> behind him is slack.

Yes, there was miles of slack in that cable while he was holding it.

Dave White <[email protected]> wrote:

>When I first saw it my reaction was "what's that pratt doing holding the
>rope while it's under tension" and had to rewind it (Sky+ is great )

Has anyone recorded it? I could put it onto a server for download...



regards - Ralph

--

Want to get in touch? http://www.radio-link.net/whereisralph.txt

In article <[email protected]>,
"Paul - xxx" <[email protected]> wrote:

> David French vaguely muttered something like ...
> > Glad to see Top Gear are promoting responsible off-roading, and giving
> > the rest of the world a positive image of our sport, by driving the
> > Discovery up a bloody Scottish mountain. As I write, Clarkson is
> > "flooring it" (his words) up the summit.
>
> I've just come home after watching shed-loads of Landrovers and sundry other
> vehicles do just that at Loversall ... If it's with the landowners
> permission, there's nothing wrong with it ..

Nothing wrong with it per se; what I object to is the negative
publicity. If Top Gear had made it clear that they were doing it with
the land owner's permission, and that responsible 4x4 owners don't drive
randomly over the countryside whenever the whim takes them, then fine,
but they didn't.

So anti-4x4 people will jump to the conclusion that we're an
irresponsible, countryside-wrecking bunch of idiots, because that's the
conclusion a lot of people would like to jump to, and given any evidence
to that effect, they'll leap on it.

It also risks potential 4x4 buyers assuming they can buy a Disco III and
hammer it up the nearest mountain regardless of permissions etc. I
would put money on somebody doing this as a consequence of the Top Gear
item. IMHO it undermines the very positive work GLASS, LARA and others
have been doing to support our hobby.

David

On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:14:37 +0000, David French
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Nothing wrong with it per se; what I object to is the negative
>publicity. If Top Gear had made it clear that they were doing it with
>the land owner's permission, and that responsible 4x4 owners don't drive
>randomly over the countryside whenever the whim takes them, then fine,
>but they didn't.

Well, let's try to keep a little perspective here shall we?

There is a general assumption that the BBC will do these things right.

Top Gear is 'that' type of program - people watch it because they too
are petrolheads. I'd venture to suggest that it has never, ever been
stated that Country File has permission to go wherever they go, but I
expect the paperwork is somewhat comprehensive.

My issue with the prog, well, actually apart from Clarkson being his
usual prattish self, I didn't have a problem with it. Just wish he'd
spilled a bit of diesel over himself before brewing-up...

David French vaguely muttered something like ...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Paul - xxx" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> David French vaguely muttered something like ...
>>> Glad to see Top Gear are promoting responsible off-roading, and giving
>>> the rest of the world a positive image of our sport, by driving the
>>> Discovery up a bloody Scottish mountain. As I write, Clarkson is
>>> "flooring it" (his words) up the summit.
>>
>> I've just come home after watching shed-loads of Landrovers and sundry
>> other vehicles do just that at Loversall ... If it's with the landowners
>> permission, there's nothing wrong with it ..
>
> Nothing wrong with it per se; what I object to is the negative
> publicity. If Top Gear had made it clear that they were doing it with
> the land owner's permission, and that responsible 4x4 owners don't drive
> randomly over the countryside whenever the whim takes them, then fine,
> but they didn't.

True.

> So anti-4x4 people will jump to the conclusion that we're an
> irresponsible, countryside-wrecking bunch of idiots, because that's the
> conclusion a lot of people would like to jump to, and given any evidence
> to that effect, they'll leap on it.

They already are .. have a peep in some 'other' newsgroups, though they
mostly just berate 'Clarkson' ..

> It also risks potential 4x4 buyers assuming they can buy a Disco III and
> hammer it up the nearest mountain regardless of permissions etc. I
> would put money on somebody doing this as a consequence of the Top Gear
> item. IMHO it undermines the very positive work GLASS, LARA and others
> have been doing to support our hobby.

Good points and I have to say I agree there's every chance some friggin'
Herbert with a silver spoon buys a Disco just so he can lord it up the
nearest bumpy bit of country. Like I said earlier, it only needs a few to
get this idea and we'll all soon have to change hobbies or buy land.

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules !!!
"A tosser is a tosser, no matter what mode of transport they're using."

In message
<david.french-32AD24.15143708112004@no-dns-yet-212-23-3-119.zen.co.uk>,
David French <[email protected]> writes
>In article <[email protected]>,
> "Paul - xxx" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> David French vaguely muttered something like ...
>> > Glad to see Top Gear are promoting responsible off-roading, and giving
>> > the rest of the world a positive image of our sport, by driving the
>> > Discovery up a bloody Scottish mountain. As I write, Clarkson is
>> > "flooring it" (his words) up the summit.
>>
>> I've just come home after watching shed-loads of Landrovers and sundry other
>> vehicles do just that at Loversall ... If it's with the landowners
>> permission, there's nothing wrong with it ..
>
>Nothing wrong with it per se; what I object to is the negative
>publicity. If Top Gear had made it clear that they were doing it with
>the land owner's permission, and that responsible 4x4 owners don't drive
>randomly over the countryside whenever the whim takes them, then fine,
>but they didn't.
>
>So anti-4x4 people will jump to the conclusion that we're an
>irresponsible, countryside-wrecking bunch of idiots, because that's the
>conclusion a lot of people would like to jump to, and given any evidence
>to that effect, they'll leap on it.
>
>It also risks potential 4x4 buyers assuming they can buy a Disco III and
>hammer it up the nearest mountain regardless of permissions etc. I
>would put money on somebody doing this as a consequence of the Top Gear
>item. IMHO it undermines the very positive work GLASS, LARA and others
>have been doing to support our hobby.
>
>David
Exactly. It's all about impressions and visual is more powerful than all
the explaining in the world. They never show real off-roading cos it
doesn't make good television and it's not the message they want to put
across - which is that 4x4s are large gas guzzling environmentally
unfriendly congestion causing unnecessary evils. They're not interested
in truth - they're journalists.
--
hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting

In message <[email protected]>, Mother <"@ {m}
@"@101fc.net> writes
>On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 15:14:37 +0000, David French
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Nothing wrong with it per se; what I object to is the negative
>>publicity. If Top Gear had made it clear that they were doing it with
>>the land owner's permission, and that responsible 4x4 owners don't drive
>>randomly over the countryside whenever the whim takes them, then fine,
>>but they didn't.
>
>Well, let's try to keep a little perspective here shall we?
>
>There is a general assumption that the BBC will do these things right.
>
>Top Gear is 'that' type of program - people watch it because they too
>are petrolheads. I'd venture to suggest that it has never, ever been
>stated that Country File has permission to go wherever they go, but I
>expect the paperwork is somewhat comprehensive.
>
>My issue with the prog, well, actually apart from Clarkson being his
>usual prattish self, I didn't have a problem with it. Just wish he'd
>spilled a bit of diesel over himself before brewing-up...
>
Brake fluid would be better -with all that hot air around it would
probably self ignite.
--
hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting