Primer for bare metal?

kmanderson62 said:

Ah alright, so should I use the etch primer, which in the description says its rust resisting first, then on top of that, an anti corrosive primer, then my top coat on all surfaces? I can't really tell what needs what to be honest, so that way seems fool proof

The etch primer I was going to go for

Etch Primer Paint - Grey - 2.5 Ltr | eBay

Says in the description it has modified zinc for anti corrosive properties

Then this on top of the etch primer

Landrover Vehicle Anti Corrosive Primer - 4 Colours - 5 Ltr | eBay

And finally this

***Aesop's Military Vehicle Paint 2.5 Ltrs & 5 Ltrs*** | eBay

I know the 2 primers may seem un required, but would it possible give added benefits, with the under layer of etch primer with zinc, then a anti corrosive primer on top of that?

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Not really heard of using the etch primer on steel, but I haven't heard that it is bad to do so, so if it floats yer boat I guess it is fine.
Never used the LR primer either, from what I have seen most just use the regular commercial rust resisting primers, kurust, corroless, galvafroid, Bilt Hamber, everyone seems to have their favourite, but they are probably all good if properly applied.

I personally wouldn't bother with a primer over a decent etch primer, the etch primer is a primer, it's just it etches itself and therefore bonds better in its own right.

I used etch primer all over; intended for the aluminium and zinc but it got used on steel too as I was very impressed with it's build and flattening properties, also that after about an hour you could score it with a nail and it wouldn't mark, but it would not go back down to bare metal. I had some left and paint everything with the stuff as a primer - some of my best painting and it's long term durability has come of this step.

To be honest the problem you will get here, is all the mixed advice and information (all ways which will work - not wrong, but might not work as a "system"), there are 20 ways to do it, there are also the experts who painted a single panel and it still "looks" OK and those who have painted whole vehicles and achieved good adhesion with good cosmetic results and their vehicles were done years ago who really have a clue what is going on - but how can you tell the difference.

Go and speak to your paint supplier, they will give you a "system" that they know will work together and suit your needs. I spent £100 on paint for my 90, which included, 2 litres of an etch primer, 7.5 litres of UPOL gloss white 2 pack paint (it was either 2 x 1 litre cans which make 3 litres total, or a 5 litre tin which makes 7.5 litres for the same money!) 2.5 litres of hardener for the UPOL, 5 litres of standard thinners, 1 litre of special thinners for the 2 pack, measuring cups, strainers etc...

discomania said:

I personally wouldn't bother with a primer over a decent etch primer, the etch primer is a primer, it's just it etches itself and therefore bonds better in its own right.

I used etch primer all over; intended for the aluminium and zinc but it got used on steel too as I was very impressed with it's build and flattening properties, also that after about an hour you could score it with a nail and it would mark, but it would not go back down to bare metal. I had some left and paint everything with the stuff as a primer - some of my best painting and it's long term durability has come of this step.

To be honest the problem you will get here, is all the mixed advice and information (all ways which will work - not wrong, but might not work as a "system"), there are 20 ways to do it, there are also the experts who painted a single panel and it still "looks" OK and those who have painted whole vehicles and achieved good adhesion with good cosmetic results and their vehicles were done years ago who really have a clue what is going on - but how can you tell the difference.

Go and speak to your paint supplier, they will give you a "system" that they know will work together and suit your needs. I spent £100 on paint for my 90, which included, 2 litres of an etch primer, 7.5 litres of UPOL gloss white 2 pack paint (it was either 2 x 1 litre cans which make 3 litres total, or a 5 litre tin which makes 7.5 litres for the same money!) 2.5 litres of hardener for the UPOL, 5 litres of standard thinners, 1 litre of special thinners for the 2 pack, measuring cups, strainers etc...

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Thanks for the advice! Just spoke to my paint supplier and he said the following

Dear kmanderson62,

No problem.
With regards to painting using the Etch & the Anti Corrosive Primer this will be fine and give your the added protection as required, please make sure each coat is dry before applying the next coat maybe leave 24 - 48 hours between the Primer coats.
I hope the above meets with your approval.
Regards
Barry - Sales Dept

- paints4trade


So it should work well, if not better than a single primer according to him?

Primer in multiple coats if applied correctly will always be far superior than 1 coat and a top coat, because I was painting in the summer I was able to do one coat of my etch, let it flash off, it was even touch dry, and added a few more till I ran out of paint in the gun. That's how body shops do it because they can't be waiting for days between coats.

What sort of top coat is he proposing?

discomania said:

I personally wouldn't bother with a primer over a decent etch primer, the etch primer is a primer, it's just it etches itself and therefore bonds better in its own right.

I used etch primer all over; intended for the aluminium and zinc but it got used on steel too as I was very impressed with it's build and flattening properties, also that after about an hour you could score it with a nail and it would mark, but it would not go back down to bare metal. I had some left and paint everything with the stuff as a primer - some of my best painting and it's long term durability has come of this step.

To be honest the problem you will get here, is all the mixed advice and information (all ways which will work - not wrong, but might not work as a "system"), there are 20 ways to do it, there are also the experts who painted a single panel and it still "looks" OK and those who have painted whole vehicles and achieved good adhesion with good cosmetic results and their vehicles were done years ago who really have a clue what is going on - but how can you tell the difference.

Go and speak to your paint supplier, they will give you a "system" that they know will work together and suit your needs. I spent £100 on paint for my 90, which included, 2 litres of an etch primer, 7.5 litres of UPOL gloss white 2 pack paint (it was either 2 x 1 litre cans which make 3 litres total, or a 5 litre tin which makes 7.5 litres for the same money!) 2.5 litres of hardener for the UPOL, 5 litres of standard thinners, 1 litre of special thinners for the 2 pack, measuring cups, strainers etc...

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Ah well, seek and ye shall find I have now heard of etch primer being used on steel. I think the other thing with painting is that it is a broad church. For myself and some others operating working vehicles, the paint is for protection and rust inhibiting only. Im really not concerned about cosmetics, it will always be covered with mud and **** anyway, and getting scratched as I crash through vegetation. I also believe that if it looks a bit hanging it is less likely to be nicked.
From what I have seen in some of your freds, you are after a professional finish similar to that found on many road cars, and you are certainly able to achieve that I don't see these approaches as conflicting, just horses for courses.

Turboman said:

Ah well, seek and ye shall find I have now heard of etch primer being used on steel. I think the other thing with painting is that it is a broad church. For myself and some others operating working vehicles, the paint is for protection and rust inhibiting only. Im really not concerned about cosmetics, it will always be covered with mud and **** anyway, and getting scratched as I crash through vegetation. I also believe that if it looks a bit hanging it is less likely to be nicked.
From what I have seen in some of your freds, you are after a professional finish similar to that found on many road cars, and you are certainly able to achieve that I don't see these approaches as conflicting, just horses for courses.

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Yes, spot on. I think if I just wanted everything to never rust and look half decent I would use heaps of the chromate stuff they use on the subs and blast it with some top coat.

discomania said:

Yes, spot on. I think if I just wanted everything to never rust and look half decent I would use heaps of the chromate stuff they use on the subs and blast it with some top coat.

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I use corroless, which I should think is very similar to the sub paint, and as you say, heaps of glossy topcoat on it to throw the water off. I like to do a tidy job out of professional pride, but it really doesn't matter with agricultural machines, after the first outing you will never tell anyway.

Turboman said:

I use corroless, which I should think is very similar to the sub paint, and as you say, heaps of glossy topcoat on it to throw the water off. I like to do a tidy job out of professional pride, but it really doesn't matter with agricultural machines, after the first outing you will never tell anyway.

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What agri stuff are you painting, I want to do a PZ165 PTO driven mower and a topper before grass cutting season - any tips or pointers?

Thanks for the info guys! I was looking for just a standard MOD look, not a professional look, but I want the anti corrosive stuff to be done right to protect my landy for as many years as possible really, not bothered about it getting scratched and coated with filth, as that will happen anyway off roading Thanks a lot guys! I'll make a thread when I do go about painting which will hopefully be soon, just waiting on the weather clearing up, again thank yous all for the info and tips

discomania said:

What agri stuff are you painting, I want to do a PZ165 PTO driven mower and a topper before grass cutting season - any tips or pointers?

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Mostly just my own old stuff. 90, 30 yr old massey, trailers, spikes, topper.I used to work on forestry machine a lot, but not now.
Like I said, everyone seems to have their own pet potions and techniques with this, but this is what I do, and it seems to be working ok.
First I would hot wash the whole thing, hot as you like, it may strip old paint too. Then try and remove all rust with a wire brush in a grinder, production paper can be good in tight corners. Then hot wash again to remove dust etc.
Sure its old news to you, but conditions are pretty important, a dry sunny day with a light wind is optimal, but few and far between here! And it really helps if its warm.
When its thoroughly dry I give it an all over coat with the corroless, leave for twenty four hours or until thoroughly dry, and same again. When the second coat is thoroughly dry I apply the topcoat, and again after forty eight hours if time allows for it.
I just use a brush, and paint unthinned but stirred, but those who equipped and skilled for spraying would probably get a similar or better result with that.

Quick question regarding painting, it seems like rolling might be quite the task, especially in the small spaces, should I invest in getting a electric paint gun, and thin the paint and use that to paint it, or should I just buy aerosols in NATO Green for the parts the roller cant get? Hopefully the color will match

if you dont want to spend alot i would say roller and aerosol, as long as the colours match it should look great, a few videos on youtube using rattle cans and duluxe, and it comes out good!

Ah great, well I found some NATO Green rattle cans, have one here actually and its pretty good, but one coat it comes right off, so will need to do a few coats with the rattle cans, but they seem alright, just hope i dont have any air bubbles rolling

To be honest I think you are fretting about this corrosion to much. The body is aluminium, the corrosion in this metal when painted is mainly when steel and aluminium are in direct contact (google galvanic corrosion). It's common around doors where the steel frame touches the aluminium - you will see a sort of whiteish powder, this is the aluminium dissolving. You see plenty of series and older landrovers where the paint has worn through to the aluminium and it hasn't corroded, it just takes on a dull metal finish. Body panels are easily replaced.

If you want standard NATO look just flat the existing paint back, etch prime any bits where you go through to the aluminium then roller/spray it with satin NATO paint

For the chassis though you DO want to sand/grind off (I recommend a flap disc on a grinder) any surface rust, treat with phosphoric acid then paint or under seal. You can't stop it rusting only slow it down.

I wouldn't fret about the body panels. For surface rust on things like the tailgate buckles.just paint over them with hammerite. They are not going to rust away, besides you can just unbolt them and fit new in seconds.

Chassis and bulkhead are the priorities IMHO and define the longevity of a vehicle.

flat said:

To be honest I think you are fretting about this corrosion to much. The body is aluminium, the corrosion in this metal when painted is mainly when steel and aluminium are in direct contact (google galvanic corrosion). It's common around doors where the steel frame touches the aluminium - you will see a sort of whiteish powder, this is the aluminium dissolving. You see plenty of series and older landrovers where the paint has worn through to the aluminium and it hasn't corroded, it just takes on a dull metal finish. Body panels are easily replaced.

If you want standard NATO look just flat the existing paint back, etch prime any bits where you go through to the aluminium then roller/spray it with satin NATO paint

For the chassis though you DO want to sand/grind off (I recommend a flap disc on a grinder) any surface rust, treat with phosphoric acid then paint or under seal. You can't stop it rusting only slow it down.

I wouldn't fret about the body panels. For surface rust on things like the tailgate buckles.just paint over them with hammerite. They are not going to rust away, besides you can just unbolt them and fit new in seconds.

Chassis and bulkhead are the priorities IMHO and define the longevity of a vehicle.

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Ah right great, there is some rust on the bulkhead, not corrosion yet though, so just sand it all back, I have phosphoric acid to treat it, and then use hammerite and paint over it? as for the chasis, it was waxoyled in August 2013, so should I just leave it as is?

Thanks!

kmanderson62 said:

Ah right great, there is some rust on the bulkhead, not corrosion yet though, so just sand it all back, I have phosphoric acid to treat it, and then use hammerite and paint over it? as for the chasis, it was waxoyled in August 2013, so should I just leave it as is?

Thanks!

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Yeah that sounds fine, as for the chassis inspect it regularly and budget to redo the waxoyl/top it up every couple years.

When you go off playing in the mud jet wash the chassis soon afterwards to remove any accumulated mud from on top of the rails/outriggers etc as wet mud encourages rust. This will help the chassis last well. Also jetwash the chassis regularly in the winter to remove road salt.

I get weird looks when I pull up at my local shell in a muddy landrover and spend half an hour or more thoroughly cleaning my chassis then only a cursory 2 minutes doing the bodywork (sometimes I don't bother doing the body work lol)

The chassis rusts from the inside out so make sure you don't just waxoyl the outside but treat the inside with a cavity wax - I can recommend dinitrol as it is easier to DIY apply. Depending on use and how much you drive per year etc plan to do this every few years.

As soon as you see rust starting to come through the paint sand it back, treat and repaint.

Ah alright thanks for the info! Do you think I'm just over worrying the now though? Right now my landy is SORN and wont be on roads until Summer, there is no rust showing through paint, just some on the door corners and some other bits and bobs, but nothing major that I have seen yet, would you class a whole re paint necessary and high priority right now, or would it be fine for a few more months?

kmanderson62 said:

Ah alright thanks for the info! Do you think I'm just over worrying the now though? Right now my landy is SORN and wont be on roads until Summer, there is no rust showing through paint, just some on the door corners and some other bits and bobs, but nothing major that I have seen yet, would you class a whole re paint necessary and high priority right now, or would it be fine for a few more months?

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Post up some decent photos of the whole vehicle and the bits you have mentioned.

IMO I would spend the time and money on making sure mechanicals/drivetrain/engine/chassis and bulkhead are sorted then worry about the bodywork cosmetics at a later date. It can have the best paint job in the world but if you chassis is Swiss cheese and your engine ropey then it will be a crap vehicle.

Best to get the basics squared away and sorted then do the cosmetics at the end of the summer when the weather is better

Fair enough! I'll have photos uploaded on this thread tomorrow morning, as far as I can tell she runs fine, drove her a fair bit, and all seems fine, but ill post pics tomorrow Thanks for the help

flat said:

Post up some decent photos of the whole vehicle and the bits you have mentioned.

IMO I would spend the time and money on making sure mechanicals/drivetrain/engine/chassis and bulkhead are sorted then worry about the bodywork cosmetics at a later date. It can have the best paint job in the world but if you chassis is Swiss cheese and your engine ropey then it will be a crap vehicle.

Best to get the basics squared away and sorted then do the cosmetics at the end of the summer when the weather is better

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I would agree completely. But do make sure that steel parts have some kind of protection on, it will slow the rust if nothing else.