P38 Non starter.

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wammers said:
Would think fuel lift pump is duff. If you get someone to switch ignition on when glow plugs are on you should see the bubbles in the clear pipe move. If they do and you switch on and off then on til glows go out several times injection pump should auto bleed enough for a start. If they don't move relay 12 is duff or lift pump is duff. Number five pin is the one that is nearest to the front of the car with relay removed and is contrary in orientation to the others.
Click to expand...

I think you need to add a dummy's guide to bridging the relay in your how to.
 
marky said:
Hi all, becm sync not problem......
I have a year 2000 DHSE, which has Sat on drive since December. I connected battery put in eka code, all lights on dash working, engine turns over but does not fire up. Put Battery on charge overnight, but still not starting. Can't smell any diesel when cranking. When the battery has been left to rundown previously I have had to re-sync becm via local independent, hence disconnecting battery to maintain charge and avoid re-sync. I have left it standing before albeit not for 6 months and has always started. Any ideas appreciated.
Thanks Marky.
Click to expand...
woops sorry using my phone and clicked post instead of cancel lol
 
Last edited:
Hi all,
Thanks for advice
Today I bridged fuel relay, cracked open injector feed, turned engine over and watched bubbles move around pipe.
I have attempted disconnecting fuel line from filter without success as its tight and don't want to break elbow.
Fuel tank has less than a 1/4,
If I add diesel to tank will this help lifting fuel?
How do I bleed system?
Is a lift pump required?
Don't want to keep spending out without fix, still I am now owner of brand new sync mate.
Thanks Marky
 
Ce
marky said:
Hi all,
Thanks for advice
Today I bridged fuel relay, cracked open injector feed, turned engine over and watched bubbles move around pipe.
I have attempted disconnecting fuel line from filter without success as its tight and don't want to break elbow.
Fuel tank has less than a 1/4,
If I add diesel to tank will this help lifting fuel?
How do I bleed system?
Is a lift pump required?
Don't want to keep spending out without fix, still I am now owner of brand new sync mate.
Thanks Marky
Click to expand...
Cracked injector feed? Is that the injector pump or the pipe on the injector from the pump. Try disconnecting the supply pipe from the injector pump if you are worried about breaking the elbow.check how much fuel the pump is delivering to the injector pump.The system is self bleeding if your intank pump is working I think it operates for 4 seconds every time the ignition is switched on so Do that a few times. Do you have a live feed at the injector pump fuel cut off solinoid? If you don't you are ****ing against the wind.
 
well here goes. i have just bought a 97 dse as a non runner. same issue no diesel at injectors. ill tell you what i found ...spoiler alert...lots of work..time and...well reasonable cost.

first things first..eliminate the in tank pump. there is a union in the plastic fuel pipes before the filter. it is a push fit so you push it together then hold the collar and pull pipe out. when ignition is switched to second position( ie..running position) the pump should run and fuel come out the pipe. (you might want to put a bottle under it) if this does not happen then its pump or relays.(new in tank lift pump cost around £60.00 you will need to buy two nuts and two olives to fit it to existing hoses)

second...is the filter plugged? disconnect fuel line from filter to High pressure pump. fuel should come out of hose. A lot of fuel...almost as much as it was coming out of the hose before the filter. if not..filter is plugged. R&R filter.(full filter / service kit for p38 diesel including...air filter,fuel filter, oil filter, pollen filters £22.00)

third is fuel getting out of the high pressure pump? There are several faults that can be caused here. some are more expensive than others.
First and cheapest is to see if the stop solenoid is functioning. have someone help you for this. with your assistant at the key, take a screw driver and place it against the body of the pump. DO NOT DO THIS NEAR ANY WIRES AND WATCH YOUR SLEEVES NEAR THE ALTINATOR BELT!!!!!" put your ear to the handle of the screw driver, have your assistant turn key to run position, NOT START!! DONT NEED YOUR ARMS IN A SPINNING ENGINE!! and you should hear a loud 'click'. have your assistant turn on and off a few times to verify click on as you dont hear the click off. if no 'click' then you need to take a volt meter and test if current is coming to the stop solenoid. this is located right behind the fuel pipes at back of pump and on top with a single wire covered by a rubber protector. put red against terminal and black against the engine you should see 12 volts or so. yes voltage but no click....R&R stop solenoid (£160.00) no click no voltage...then there is an issue with the ecu and becm..possible broken wire to solenoid as well...you will need to investigate this further. if yes voltage and yes click then move on.
second is that the imobiliser is engaged. this can have many reasons (keep in mind I am talking about a FIP that hasent been played with..ie taken apart) successful EKA entry and setting windows, sunroof, and leaving radio key in ignition while setting........removed my imobiliser issue without syncmate...but that doesnt mean yours will (p38s...enjoy! :) ) You have a sync mate and it is giving the all clear so this isnt the issue fingers crossed.
third... time to get serious.....there is a bolt in the back of the pump in the center of the fuel pipes.. THIS IS THE HIGH PRESSURE SIDE OF THE PUMP AND FUEL IS INTENDED TO BE AT 300 BAR ON THIS SIDE!!! TAKE PRECAUTIONS!! IT wont be a lot of fuel, not a constant flow like the filter end of things, but it will spurt out! It is 12 mm and has a copper washer that needs to be replaced if removed. (standard disclaimer...but i have removed them several times and reused without issue if kept clean and undamaged).. When the key is turned on and in tank pump is running, fuel should come out of this hole. Not a lot, but some. You may need to crank engine by hand a rotation or two to see this, maybe not. This will indicate that the fuel is getting through the pump to the high pressure side. If no fuel comes out this bolt, check if fuel is coming out the return. this is the pipe on top of the pump that has the small black braided hose on one side and a large rubber one that follows to the rear of the engine and back to the tank. if fuel is moving in the pump, then fuel will come out of this pipe and a fair amount of it. if there is no fuel moving out of the pump at all, then there is a problem with the pump. If fuel is seen in both places, then there is a problem with the drive sprocket.
Fourth....and this is the more expensive problem......if stop solenoid, imobiliser, and fuel are as they should be.....and you still cant get fuel out of the pump (this was my problem) then it is time to bite the bullet and inspect the FIP shaft and woodruf key. this key can strip damaging both the pump and drive sprocket. you will need special tools and knowledge to do this!!! the pump will need to be removed and the key way inspected any problems should be self evident. If this key way is stripped, the fuel will get into the high pressure side of the pump but there will be insufficiant pressure to push the fuel past its non return valves to the injectors as the drive sprocket will slip instead of turn the pump. (damaged drive sprocket £63.00, new key £4.00, new old pump £150.00 with warranty ,if your as lucky as me, rebuilt pump £600.00 new pump anywhere from £1500.00-£2,200.00 depending on source. tool to remove pump without completely buggering your timing chains £30.00. pins to locate flywheel at tdc £20.00 or £160.00 for timing set for M51 engine excluding FIP timing tool. ($20.00 option includes flywheel pin and cam lock however the cam lock needed to be modified to fit tightly enough for correct timing setting) FIP timing tool £39.00 -£160.00 (£39.00 option is buying a VAG dial indicator for bosch injection then throwing away the rest of the kit and buy a USPRO Bosch VE timing tool which will and does fit the land rover as well as many others for £9.00 and is very high _uality. (sorry the intended letter between h and u there is not working on my laptop :D) knowledge to do all this....PRICELESS!!!!

I hope this process gets you fuel in the right places ..it has for me......now im off to replace the valve seals!
 
Clock guy said:
well here goes. i have just bought a 97 dse as a non runner. same issue no diesel at injectors. ill tell you what i found ...spoiler alert...lots of work..time and...well reasonable cost.

first things first..eliminate the in tank pump. there is a union in the plastic fuel pipes before the filter. it is a push fit so you push it together then hold the collar and pull pipe out. when ignition is switched to second position( ie..running position) the pump should run and fuel come out the pipe. (you might want to put a bottle under it) if this does not happen then its pump or relays.(new in tank lift pump cost around £60.00 you will need to buy two nuts and two olives to fit it to existing hoses)

second...is the filter plugged? disconnect fuel line from filter to High pressure pump. fuel should come out of hose. A lot of fuel...almost as much as it was coming out of the hose before the filter. if not..filter is plugged. R&R filter.(full filter / service kit for p38 diesel including...air filter,fuel filter, oil filter, pollen filters £22.00)

third is fuel getting out of the high pressure pump? There are several faults that can be caused here. some are more expensive than others.
First and cheapest is to see if the stop solenoid is functioning. have someone help you for this. with your assistant at the key, take a screw driver and place it against the body of the pump. DO NOT DO THIS NEAR ANY WIRES AND WATCH YOUR SLEEVES NEAR THE ALTINATOR BELT!!!!!" put your ear to the handle of the screw driver, have your assistant turn key to run position, NOT START!! DONT NEED YOUR ARMS IN A SPINNING ENGINE!! and you should hear a loud 'click'. have your assistant turn on and off a few times to verify click on as you dont hear the click off. if no 'click' then you need to take a volt meter and test if current is coming to the stop solenoid. this is located right behind the fuel pipes at back of pump and on top with a single wire covered by a rubber protector. put red against terminal and black against the engine you should see 12 volts or so. yes voltage but no click....R&R stop solenoid (£160.00) no click no voltage...then there is an issue with the ecu and becm..possible broken wire to solenoid as well...you will need to investigate this further. if yes voltage and yes click then move on.
second is that the imobiliser is engaged. this can have many reasons (keep in mind I am talking about a FIP that hasent been played with..ie taken apart) successful EKA entry and setting windows, sunroof, and leaving radio key in ignition while setting........removed my imobiliser issue without syncmate...but that doesnt mean yours will (p38s...enjoy! :) ) You have a sync mate and it is giving the all clear so this isnt the issue fingers crossed.
third... time to get serious.....there is a bolt in the back of the pump in the center of the fuel pipes.. THIS IS THE HIGH PRESSURE SIDE OF THE PUMP AND FUEL IS INTENDED TO BE AT 300 BAR ON THIS SIDE!!! TAKE PRECAUTIONS!! IT wont be a lot of fuel, not a constant flow like the filter end of things, but it will spurt out! It is 12 mm and has a copper washer that needs to be replaced if removed. (standard disclaimer...but i have removed them several times and reused without issue if kept clean and undamaged).. When the key is turned on and in tank pump is running, fuel should come out of this hole. Not a lot, but some. You may need to crank engine by hand a rotation or two to see this, maybe not. This will indicate that the fuel is getting through the pump to the high pressure side. If no fuel comes out this bolt, check if fuel is coming out the return. this is the pipe on top of the pump that has the small black braided hose on one side and a large rubber one that follows to the rear of the engine and back to the tank. if fuel is moving in the pump, then fuel will come out of this pipe and a fair amount of it. if there is no fuel moving out of the pump at all, then there is a problem with the pump. If fuel is seen in both places, then there is a problem with the drive sprocket.
Fourth....and this is the more expensive problem......if stop solenoid, imobiliser, and fuel are as they should be.....and you still cant get fuel out of the pump (this was my problem) then it is time to bite the bullet and inspect the FIP shaft and woodruf key. this key can strip damaging both the pump and drive sprocket. you will need special tools and knowledge to do this!!! the pump will need to be removed and the key way inspected any problems should be self evident. If this key way is stripped, the fuel will get into the high pressure side of the pump but there will be insufficiant pressure to push the fuel past its non return valves to the injectors as the drive sprocket will slip instead of turn the pump. (damaged drive sprocket £63.00, new key £4.00, new old pump £150.00 with warranty ,if your as lucky as me, rebuilt pump £600.00 new pump anywhere from £1500.00-£2,200.00 depending on source. tool to remove pump without completely buggering your timing chains £30.00. pins to locate flywheel at tdc £20.00 or £160.00 for timing set for M51 engine excluding FIP timing tool. ($20.00 option includes flywheel pin and cam lock however the cam lock needed to be modified to fit tightly enough for correct timing setting) FIP timing tool £39.00 -£160.00 (£39.00 option is buying a VAG dial indicator for bosch injection then throwing away the rest of the kit and buy a USPRO Bosch VE timing tool which will and does fit the land rover as well as many others for £9.00 and is very high _uality. (sorry the intended letter between h and u there is not working on my laptop :D) knowledge to do all this....PRICELESS!!!!

I hope this process gets you fuel in the right places ..it has for me......now im off to replace the valve seals!
Click to expand...
copper washer can be anealed and reused i.e.. heat till cherry red and drop into water. Good luck.
 
Thanks guys,
Cracked injector = union at top of injector no.4.
Solenoid I will try to locate and investigate.
Clock guy, erm, plenty for me to look at.. will try to look in to 1, 2 and 3.
Stage 4 will be out of my league.
.... Marky.
 
sorry to hear that marky. the 4th injector is the start of injection sensor for the ecu. it is the most expensive injector. i have seen them as much as £220.00 might be worth contacting a diesel specialist to see if a rebuild on your injector would be cheaper. By diesel specialist..i dont mean a garage that does diesels. I mean a lab that does nothing but diesel injectors and pumps. This cuts out the middle man and can be a very reasonable cost. in fact..i found one here in scotland that only charges £60.00 or 1 hrs labor to disassemble and asses the VE pump.

Good luck and keep us posted ;)
 
Sorry Clock guy, l didn't explain that very well,
I was replying to tomcat when asked what I meant by cracking injector feed, I meant opening nut on top of injector to release air, I did replace this injector about 18 months ago, you are quite right about cost, it was £180.
I will try solenoid test and also see if fuel comes out when removing clear pipe from filter head.
Then I might be getting beyond my abilities.
Thanks
Marky
 
Clock guy, you now got me thinking about injector no.4 with sensor, I bought it from an online company, who always told me receipt for this Bosch item was in post (schoolboy error).
Just a thought, if this was a short lived rogue injector could it be cause of my fuel issue?
Marky.
 
hey marky, i am no expert..i bow to wammers and others on here. This p38 is my first experience with the m51 engine. I have been certified ASE tech for 30 years but in petrol not diesel. (the training separates after suck, s_ueeze, bang, blow.) I will however try to help as I am reading all I can about this engine. ''edited because i have had a few beers at our local celebration.'' (splashes wate rin face) right....if your problem is 'no diesel delivered to injectors' then I would say NO. the start of injection signal is used to meter flow and correct timing issues by the ecu. This ......again i have had a few....should not ..(god i actually put it in writting) stop fuel frm being delivered. It will be more of an issue when the engine is running. ie...rough idle, poor exceleration, excessive fuel consumption,....etc. in any diagnostic procedure, you must first see to the basics. suck,s-ueeze, bang, blow. you need fuel and air and compression. In other less drunk words, no..you should get fuel out of the pump before the 4th injector becomes an issue.
 
Last edited:
Faulty number four injector cannot prevent the engine from starting. If it was faulty the engine check lamp would be on. Check lift pump for function as said earlier.
 
marky said:
Thanks guys,
Cracked injector = union at top of injector no.4.
Solenoid I will try to locate and investigate.
Clock guy, erm, plenty for me to look at.. will try to look in to 1, 2 and 3.
Stage 4 will be out of my league.
.... Marky.
Click to expand...

Stay away from #4. Bl**dy expensive to replace so just don't risk it. System should be self-bleeding within reason.

Cracking write-up from clock-guy. Stop solenoid is next port of call for me.
 
Ok,
I have disconnected clear pipe at filter, ignition on, pipe in bottle and no fuel coming out. Bridged relay, swapped relay, checked fuses.
So... is it now lift pump fail?
 
The black pipe is the one from the pump but if the filter is not blocked you should get fuel out of where the clear pipes fits. When was the last time the filter was changed?. It's either the pump, most likely, or the wiring. I had one with a broken wire, anyway you will a, have to drop the tank or b, cut an access panel in the floor . I recommend dropping the tank so you can check the rear brake pipes that run behind it.
 
Yup. For one reason or another your lift pump isn't working. You will need to put a jack under your fuel tank and lower the tank. This is tough and heavy. Get help. Once it is lowered enough to reach the connector for the pump, disconnect it and test for voltage with a meter when the key is switched on. If you have voltage then the pump has failed.
 
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