P38 - air to coils?

kooky_guy said:

Dumb question #5634129851 - What's a coilover?

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Yep, a coil over a strut - but they are built as one unit and work together. Quite often cars will have a Macpherson strut setup, where the spring sits over the strut, but both parts are changeable independently, whereas with a coilover you have to change the whole unit.

However, coilovers tend to give a lot greater adjustability, better damping, improved control, etc etc.

MikeV8SE said:

IHowever, if someone like Koni, Eibach, Bilstein, etc produce a kit for this car, and don't have a 'base' system to start with, then they MUST have done a lot of R&D to produce a suitable kit that is safe - and in that situation I would suggest that would be a viable and safe alternative to EAS.

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Doesn't alter the basic premise that the car was designed to be lower at speed. A coil spring setup can't do that - certainly not by replacing the airbags with coils.

I admit it might be possible to make it safe/stable if you redesigned the suspension layout completely, but the layout as it is was designed to have the heights changed to retain stability.

The only way you could do it would be to have the coils such that they gave the equivalent of motorway height which would make it useless off road.

I went out off roading with someone in a coil converted P38. Guess who got stuck? (Not me).

kooky_guy said:

I went out off roading with someone in a coil converted P38. Guess who got stuck? (Not me).

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Why did they get stuck? Had they 'lowered' it to motorway ride height when doing the coil conversion?

MikeV8SE said:

Why did they get stuck? Had they 'lowered' it to motorway ride height when doing the coil conversion?

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Not sure, but it was another of these coil kits. Ripped part of his bumper off a bit later too.

kooky_guy said:

Not sure, but it was another of these coil kits. Ripped part of his bumper off a bit later too.

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Sounds expensive!

The thing is, I'm not pro-coils or adverse-EAS. in fact I'm pretty neutral - but I do think some of the people berating coil conversions have no experience with them, and plenty of people with the conversions seem more than happy with their new setup!

I was just talking to someone who has a P38 for sale actually, has been coil converted and she said after being stranded 3 times by the EAS, once in France, and getting fed up of replacing airbags and blocks, they swapped to coils and wish they'd done it sooner! Apparently it rides every bit as well as it did on EAS, no stability problems at speed, and gives them the added reassurance that they wont be getting stranded again (or not because of the EAS, anyway)!

Still, I have no experience of coil conversions but given how much some people love them and how much some people hate them, there must be a huge difference in the kits themselves IMO.

MikeV8SE said:

Sounds expensive!

I was just talking to someone who has a P38 for sale actually, has been coil converted and she said after being stranded 3 times by the EAS, once in France, and getting fed up of replacing airbags and blocks, they swapped to coils and wish they'd done it sooner! Apparently it rides every bit as well as it did on EAS, no stability problems at speed, and gives them the added reassurance that they wont be getting stranded again (or not because of the EAS, anyway)!

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Sounds like another example of one that hasn't been maintained. There is no reason why you would have to change your airbags more than once - unless you foolishly replace one at a time. Preventative maintenance is the key just like every system on any vehicle, but if you're going to let a garage do it - make sure they know what they're talking about - it seems that a lot of them don't and will just keep replacing major parts until the fault goes away.

I expect she would say that about the coils since she was selling it! As we keep saying - it cannot possibly be as stable at speed as EAS unless the height has been set so low as to make it useless for anything, in which case you might as well buy something completely different instead.

MikeV8SE said:

I agree to an extent, but then plenty of 4x4's drive perfectly well on coil springs at motorway speeds - you just have to use the right ones.

Which comes back to my point - if you get something like the Britpart kit, who I imagine (but don't know!) use a number of suppliers, then I would personally not be too happy with the setup - more luck than judgement if you get a good setup.

However, if someone like Koni, Eibach, Bilstein, etc produce a kit for this car, and don't have a 'base' system to start with, then they MUST have done a lot of R&D to produce a suitable kit that is safe - and in that situation I would suggest that would be a viable and safe alternative to EAS.

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No matter how much R&D is carried out coil springs always have to be a compromise. Coil springs can never match the adaptability of the EAS it is not possible. Unless you had four or five sets to interchange for differing load speed combinations, which is obviously a stupid idea. The air springs do exactly the same job as the coils but are adjustable. They maintain a set height regardless of load, and the vehicle is always level regardless of load. Something no set of coils is remotely capable of doing. Fitting coils to a P38 is like removing the guard from your circular saw i am afraid. OK until you forget it's not there, then no hands.

I see your point, but surely the simplicity of coils is also a factor (although not as important as safety)?

For me, for example, I have no intention of travelling at 100mph anywhere, but I do intend on driving it across the Pyrennes on tracks and greenlanes alone, and also venturing to Morocco with it. So I would happily trade high speed stability (which I won't need) for solid engineering and reliability (which I will). As such, I would be happy to buy a P38 with a coil spring conversion as long as it drove well and had decent ground clearance - unless someone can tell me a reason why I shouldn't?

There is not a chance on this planet would I trust EAS on a trek like that, its almost guaranteed that it will let you down, in more ways than one ha ha.
Davie

MikeV8SE said:

I see your point, but surely the simplicity of coils is also a factor (although not as important as safety)?

For me, for example, I have no intention of travelling at 100mph anywhere, but I do intend on driving it across the Pyrennes on tracks and greenlanes alone, and also venturing to Morocco with it. So I would happily trade high speed stability (which I won't need) for solid engineering and reliability (which I will). As such, I would be happy to buy a P38 with a coil spring conversion as long as it drove well and had decent ground clearance - unless someone can tell me a reason why I shouldn't?

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Mike there is no reason why you should not do that. I am sure that after all the talking, coils EAS, EAS coils, it comes down to people being too lazy or not competant enough to maintain the vehicle properly. If a vehicle is not maintained properly it will eventually give up on you. However i can also appreciate the view that being left with a vehicle on the bump stops in the middle of nowhere is a concern, so they go for coils. However if the money used on the coil convertion was used to repair the EAS, there is no reason why the vehicle would not be fully reliable for a very long time. A new set of air bags and sensors is around £450.00. They are the cause of most major problems with the EAS. The valve block and compressor can be fully serviced for around £45.00. IF you can do the work yourself a pretty cheap solution. Not a lot else goes wrong with the system. So for less than the cost of a coil convertion you have a proper suspension system that with a little care and maintenance should last ten years or more without major work.

Davie F said:

There is not a chance on this planet would I trust EAS on a trek like that, its almost guaranteed that it will let you down, in more ways than one ha ha.
Davie

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Properly maintained and serviced EAS is no more likely to let you down than any other system. Coils do break you know.

MikeV8SE said:

I see your point, but surely the simplicity of coils is also a factor (although not as important as safety)?

For me, for example, I have no intention of travelling at 100mph anywhere, but I do intend on driving it across the Pyrennes on tracks and greenlanes alone, and also venturing to Morocco with it. So I would happily trade high speed stability (which I won't need) for solid engineering and reliability (which I will). As such, I would be happy to buy a P38 with a coil spring conversion as long as it drove well and had decent ground clearance - unless someone can tell me a reason why I shouldn't?

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personally i travel in excess of 100mph on motorways etc on a regular basis. my ranger rover can handle it (i think 120mph is the top speed ive clocked on it) its like saying you'll take out the spare wheel cos you havent got a puncture in ages!!

Davie F said:

There is not a chance on this planet would I trust EAS on a trek like that, its almost guaranteed that it will let you down, in more ways than one ha ha.
Davie

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well if you service and maintain everything as it should you would not have to worry. with a little laptop/eas kicker you can reset faults in the field and get moving easily enough.

if thats all true why doe disco with coilos and ace handle better

jamesmartin said:

if thats all true why doe disco with coilos and ace handle better

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the thread is entitled "P38 - air to coils?" discos's arent in question here.

handle better than p38

jamesmartin said:

handle better than p38

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so does a ferrari but thats not what were talking about here. it get too confusing when people go off topic. if you want to discuss that maybe start a new thread.

some people seem to be making out air suspension is the only way to be safe not true ,p38 suspension isnt very sophisticted it only varies hieght,disco are heavy tall vehicles and handle well so can p38s on coils ,its personnel choice,funnily some of the best results ive had have been with hd britpart yellow springs and yellow gas shocks

jamesmartin said:

some people seem to be making out air suspension is the only way to be safe not true

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well when its factory standard it is going to be best. but over all its safer than coils. FACT

jamesmartin said:

p38 suspension isnt very sophisticted it only varies hieght,

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so coils are sophisticated then are they? cos they dont change height. seriously read what you just wrote.

jamesmartin said:

disco are heavy tall vehicles and handle well

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again pointless in this conversation.

depends what you what hiegth adjustment isnt that sophisticated it doesnt adjust pressures to help cornering ,factory settings have allways been a compromise to suit wide range of situations and people those that want on road firm ride that doesnt wallow might prefer a good coil setup giving that, ididnt say coils where sophisticated but are cheap ,reliable ,and can be set to your preference,i dont mind what people prefer its just the religous zeal against anything not written lr holy bible that ****s me of,you keep your air but dont deride people that prefer other

jamesmartin said:

depends what you what hiegth adjustment isnt that sophisticated it doesnt adjust pressures to help cornering ,factory settings have allways been a compromise to suit wide range of situations and people those that want on road firm ride that doesnt wallow might prefer a good coil setup giving that, ididnt say coils where sophisticated but are cheap ,reliable ,and can be set to your preference,i dont mind what people prefer its just the religous zeal against anything not written lr holy bible that ****s me of,you keep your air but dont deride people that prefer other

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Think you've missed the whole point of this discussion.