p38 2.5 wont start

hi there can eny one out there help me went out in my range to day don just 22 miles in it and naw it wont start it fiyers up and then cofs and cuts out . there looks like there is air in the cleyer plastic pipe i was just wundering do you blead hall the injectors or can you just do one to get the air out and is the pump manuel of electric one

markowl said:

hi there can eny one out there help me went out in my range to day don just 22 miles in it and naw it wont start it fiyers up and then cofs and cuts out . there looks like there is air in the cleyer plastic pipe i was just wundering do you blead hall the injectors or can you just do one to get the air out and is the pump manuel of electric one

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Pump electric but only runs with key in start position or when engine is running. With ignition off take pump relay out and put live from battery to terminal 5 to run pump. Then undo banjo on injector pump to bleed clear pipe. That way you can also check if pump is actually running. You can try slackening injectors off getting some one to crank it and nipping them up as you get good diesel. Be aware it may start doing this. Thing to do is find the source of the air in the pipe. Sounds like there maybe a problem with the pump.

thanks for the repy do you do 1 injector or hall of them where is the banjo onthe pump

How much fuel do you have in the tank? If you have a problem with the pump in the tank(sometimes the pipe between the pump in the bottom of the tank and the connector on the top comes adrift for example) and your fuel is low, you'll get the same symptoms. I had the same with mine and had to keep it about a 1/4 full or more. When there's more than that in, the mechanical pump on the engine will suck enough through to start the engine.

markowl said:

thanks for the repy do you do 1 injector or hall of them where is the banjo onthe pump

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Follow clear pipe to pump to find banjo. Normally a rotary pump will clear with just one injector open.

And after check the leak off pipes.

hi there bled injector cheked leak of pips and replasd them but still geting air in pipe just thort can it be suking air from tank

Hi, I had the same problem and like Derek if I kept it above 1/4 tank it was fine, never needed to bleed it even though I seen air bubbles in the line it just cleared itself when tank got topped up. I sorted it but tbh never usually run it that low to find out now. Other than that (I'll state the obvious) you must be sucking air from somewhere.
Hope you sort it soon
Davie

hi there it look like i ham gowin to teke the tank of and see if there is a problem there .cos i have chekerd hall the pipes for leaks and there is none air from filter to pump in the pipe

hi there removed the tank checked the pump with live and ground and iit is runing ok so the problem must be some where hels dos the pump continue to run when the egnishen is on exsus my speling

markowl said:

hi there removed the tank checked the pump with live and ground and iit is runing ok so the problem must be some where hels dos the pump continue to run when the egnishen is on exsus my speling

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Lift pump does not run at all until starter is engaged. When engine is running pump relay is pulled in directly by current from alternator.

i will cheqe for power in multey plug tomorow will the be power to the pump with egnishon on or will i have to triy and start it

wammers said:

Lift pump does not run at all until starter is engaged. When engine is running pump relay is pulled in directly by current from alternator.

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According to Rave, It's also pulled in when the glow plugs are on via 12V from nr 6.
I don't know where they get this polarity reversal nonsense from either. I know it says that in the description but it's not borne out in the diagrams (here we go again says Master Yoda....).
Also, depending on the version of Rave you have it's not (according to the diagrams) pulled in by the starter. Only on one diagram (ETM 99 on) does it show connections for this. Odd.

Originally Posted by markowl
hi there removed the tank checked the pump with live and ground and iit is runing ok so the problem must be some where hels dos the pump continue to run when the egnishen is on exsus my speling

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It may have been running but was it actually pumping fuel?

Derek Ward said:

According to Rave, It's also pulled in when the glow plugs are on via 12V from nr 6.
I don't know where they get this polarity reversal nonsense from either. I know it says that in the description but it's not borne out in the diagrams (here we go again says Master Yoda....).
Also, depending on the version of Rave you have it's not (according to the diagrams) pulled in by the starter. Only on one diagram (ETM 99 on) does it show connections for this. Odd.

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Derek i can only speak about the version of RAVE i use for my 99 DSE, in the description entitled Fuel Pump. It clearly states that the pump relay is not pulled in until the starter motor is activated, the circuit is earthed through the alternator. When the engine starts and current is generated by the alternator a polarity change +- reversal de-activates the starter and the relay is then held in by the alternator whilst the engine runs. Which version of Rave do you have? Maybe on the pre 99 models the pump was activated as you say then, the alternator takes over after start. Don't know have not got those versions. Maybe that is the reason some have said they can hear the pump when they switch on. However after the glow plugs go out there would be no power to the pump unless the engine had been started. That is why they vainly try to bleed the fuel system and sometimes think the pump is shot. When working on the system the only way to get the pump to run to bleed the system without having to crank engine on the later version or on earlier version constantly switch on and off to have glows lit is to leave ignition off and power terminal 5 on pump relay socket. Thats my story and i'm sticking to it.

markowl said:

hi there removed the tank checked the pump with live and ground and iit is runing ok so the problem must be some where hels dos the pump continue to run when the egnishen is on exsus my speling

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If you'd have read through the posts there was a much easier way of doing that.

hi there just put sume fuel in a contaner and testerd the pump and it pumped the fuel out of the contaner so the pump is working ok i will have to look to see if there is power geting to the pump

markowl said:

hi there just put sume fuel in a contaner and testerd the pump and it pumped the fuel out of the contaner so the pump is working ok i will have to look to see if there is power geting to the pump

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You could have done all that by powering terminal 5 on pump relay socket. No need to remove tank or pump until you have found a fault. You will be kicking yourself if all you need is a new pump relay.

hi there can you tell me witch one is terminal 5 or have you got a pic of it

wammers said:

Derek i can only speak about the version of RAVE i use for my 99 DSE, in the description entitled Fuel Pump. It clearly states that the pump relay is not pulled in until the starter motor is activated, the circuit is earthed through the alternator. When the engine starts and current is generated by the alternator a polarity change +- reversal de-activates the starter and the relay is then held in by the alternator whilst the engine runs. Which version of Rave do you have? Maybe on the pre 99 models the pump was activated as you say then, the alternator takes over after start. Don't know have not got those versions. Maybe that is the reason some have said they can hear the pump when they switch on. However after the glow plugs go out there would be no power to the pump unless the engine had been started. That is why they vainly try to bleed the fuel system and sometimes think the pump is shot. When working on the system the only way to get the pump to run to bleed the system without having to crank engine on the later version or on earlier version constantly switch on and off to have glows lit is to leave ignition off and power terminal 5 on pump relay socket. Thats my story and i'm sticking to it.

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Hello Old Bean
I fully agree that's what they say and indeed on 99 on the relay is operated by the starter relay but through a diode. The fuel pump relay has a permanent earth so therefore cannot have a polarity reversal. The same diagram also shows the relay being fed from the glow plug circuit, again through another diode. The third feed of course (once again through a diode) is from the alternator. This is on the diagram 1999 Models on - 4th edition. These diodes obviously stop one circuit backfeeding another.
I have 3 other variations - 1995/4th edition / 1996 5th edition & 1997 6th edition. They all show no circuit between the starter relay and the fuel pump relay. I agree with you that this doesn't sound right. Maybe these drawings are incorrect along with the description?
But there is no polarity reversal!

ps Am I in the running for anorak of the month?