OT: (saab) sump plug trouble

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Mr.Nice. wrote:
> I'm having trouble removing the sump plug from my wifes 1990 saab 9000
> turbo.
> it simply will not turn.
> I use a spanner at first then moved to a socket, now I've been trying
> a grippy plumbers tool thing but it is just destroying the head of the
> bolt and won't turn the plug.
> Does anyone have any suggstions?
> I was thinking about using a hacksaw to cut into the copper washer
> thereby releaving the pressure etc etc.
> but I'm stumped with this, I've never met a jammed sump plug.
>
>
> Regards.
> Mark.(AKA, Mr.Nice.)

Massive Stilson wrench always works for me, but you'll need a new sump plug
afterwards. (The angle of the jaws and the geometry of the pivot mean that
a good Stilson cannot slip - you'll crush the bolt before it rounds it off.)
Or try a hammer and cold chisel on the corners. New plug, etc. The shock
should move the plug if you don't smash your hands first. :)

--

Rich

Series 2a
RR 4.6
V8 trialler
dog, wife, kids, whatever


 
On or around 18 Aug 2004 13:35:39 GMT, Simon Barr <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>Annealing is when you heat something up and let it cool slowly to soften
>it or relieve stresses in the material.

that's for steel, whereas

>What you have described is quenching isn't it?

yep. and that's for copper.

get it as bright red as your nerves will stand, (remember that it melts at a
lower temperature than steel) and dunk it in cold water. Afterwards, it'll
be all soft and pliable. Copper work-hardens very quickly, so you anneal it
in order that it's soft and makes a good seal when you refit it.



--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
Soon shall thy arm, unconquered steam! afar Drag the slow barge, or
drive the rapid car; Or on wide-waving wings expanded bear the
flying chariot through the field of air.- Erasmus Darwin (1731-1802)
 
On or around Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:21:09 +0100, rads
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>Don't think you can harden copper in the same way (no phase change,
>and besides which it would melt!). You can work harden copper, but
>would agree that to fully anneal you should let it cool slowly, not
>quench.

see other post - copper's different. Play with a piece is best. If you
bend it backwards and forwards, it rapidly becomes stiffer (ooer) and then
breaks.

however, anneal it, by heating it to bright red and quenching, and it
becomes very soft.

and BTW, the modern collapsible washers can't be done like that, you need
nice solid copper ones.

I've got into the habit of making me own, in fact. Cut 'em out of a spare
piece of copper pipe, suitably opened up and flattened.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"There are three sorts of people in the world - those who can count,
and those who can't" (Anon)
 
In article <[email protected]>, Austin Shackles wrote:
> On or around 18 Aug 2004 13:35:39 GMT, Simon Barr <[email protected]>
> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>Annealing is when you heat something up and let it cool slowly to soften
>>it or relieve stresses in the material.
>
> that's for steel, whereas
>
>>What you have described is quenching isn't it?
>
> yep. and that's for copper.
>
> get it as bright red as your nerves will stand, (remember that it melts at a
> lower temperature than steel) and dunk it in cold water. Afterwards, it'll
> be all soft and pliable. Copper work-hardens very quickly, so you anneal it
> in order that it's soft and makes a good seal when you refit it.
>

Cheers Austin.

Why is nothing ever nice and simple?

Like I said ealier I've never done this, I just reuse the washers if they
don't look too mangled. Next time I'll give this a go, maybe with a spare
to hand in case it melts :)

--
simon at sbarr dot demon dot co dot uk
Simon Barr.
'97 110 300Tdi.

I looked out my window, and saw Kyle Pettys' car upside down,
then I thought 'One of us is in real trouble'.
-- Davey Allison, on a 150 m.p.h. crash
 
Mr.Nice <[email protected]> writes:

> looks like I may be drilling it out with one of those reverse-twist
> drill bits, but will that work?

Maybe. What is more likely is that the Ee-Z-out (that's what they're
called) will break off in the plug and then you will be in a much
worse situation. I wouldn't risk it.

Pete

--
____________________________________________________________________
Pete Young [email protected] Remove .dot to reply
"Just another crouton, floating on the bouillabaisse of life"
 
In article <[email protected]>, Austin Shackles wrote:
>
> fit a new washer unless it's a solid copper one (all mine are, I make 'em to
> replace the crap collapsible ones that stuff is fitted with) in which case,
> anneal the washer before refitting - heat it with a gas torch or similar
> 'til it's bright red and then dunk it in cold water...
>

Does that stand for re-using any solid copper washer?

I've reused them in the past but never annealed them first cos I didn't know
you needed to.

Hmm... Just checked that I really knew what annealing was.

Annealing is when you heat something up and let it cool slowly to soften
it or relieve stresses in the material.

What you have described is quenching isn't it?

I could understand how softening it might make it seal better when it gets
re-used but quenching, doesn't that harden things? Or is that what's
needed?

--
simon at sbarr dot demon dot co dot uk
Simon Barr.
'97 110 300Tdi.
 
On or around Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:20:42 +0100, Mr.Nice.
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>I used a single hex socket and a long bar and couldn't make it budge.
>the head is getting into a bit of a mess now.
>
>I don't have anything hotter than a zippo to apply to it though.
>
take it to a garage where they have an oxy torch.

oh and if you find someone to lend you the use of a torch, be careful not to
set it on fire.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Ask yourself whether you are happy, and you cease to be so."
John Stuart Mill (1806 - 1873)
 
Twas Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:16:02 +0100 when Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> put finger to keyboard producing:

>On or around Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:20:42 +0100, Mr.Nice.
><[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>I don't have anything hotter than a zippo to apply to it though.
>
>
>whereabouts are you? I've got a welding torch...

East Cornwall, PL13.


Regards.
Mark.(AKA, Mr.Nice.)
--
___________________________________________________________
You need only two tools: WD-40 and Duct Tape. If it doesn't move and it should, use WD-40. If it moves and shouldn't, use the duct tape.
www.markvarleyphoto.co.uk
1984 110 CSW 2.5(na)D
___________________________________________________________



.................................................................
Posted via TITANnews - Uncensored Newsgroups Access
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Twas Mon, 16 Aug 2004 22:52:09 +0100 when Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> put finger to keyboard producing:

>On or around Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:24:28 +0100, Mr.Nice.
><[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>I'm having trouble removing the sump plug from my wifes 1990 saab 9000
>>turbo.
>>it simply will not turn.
>>I use a spanner at first then moved to a socket, now I've been trying
>>a grippy plumbers tool thing but it is just destroying the head of the
>>bolt and won't turn the plug.
>>Does anyone have any suggstions?
>>I was thinking about using a hacksaw to cut into the copper washer
>>thereby releaving the pressure etc etc.
>>but I'm stumped with this, I've never met a jammed sump plug.
>
>heat it with an oxy-acetylene torch, then apply spanner.
>
>
>seriously, that's what I've had to do to a couple that wouldn't move. One
>was sufficiently tight that it was just distorting the sump when leaning on
>it.
>
>helps if you've not destroyed the hex head, of course... use a single-hex
>socket on it, not a 12-pointer.
>
>fit a new washer unless it's a solid copper one (all mine are, I make 'em to
>replace the crap collapsible ones that stuff is fitted with) in which case,
>anneal the washer before refitting - heat it with a gas torch or similar
>'til it's bright red and then dunk it in cold water...

I used a single hex socket and a long bar and couldn't make it budge.
the head is getting into a bit of a mess now.

I don't have anything hotter than a zippo to apply to it though.

looks like I may be drilling it out with one of those reverse-twist
drill bits, but will that work?


Regards.
Mark.(AKA, Mr.Nice.)
--
___________________________________________________________
You need only two tools: WD-40 and Duct Tape. If it doesn't move and it should, use WD-40. If it moves and shouldn't, use the duct tape.
www.markvarleyphoto.co.uk
1984 110 CSW 2.5(na)D
___________________________________________________________



.................................................................
Posted via TITANnews - Uncensored Newsgroups Access
>>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<<
-=Every Newsgroup - Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

 
Twas Mon, 16 Aug 2004 23:14:49 +0100 when Tom Woods
<[email protected]> put finger to keyboard producing:

>On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:24:28 +0100, Mr.Nice.
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I'm having trouble removing the sump plug from my wifes 1990 saab 9000
>>turbo.
>>it simply will not turn.
>>I use a spanner at first then moved to a socket, now I've been trying
>>a grippy plumbers tool thing but it is just destroying the head of the
>>bolt and won't turn the plug.
>>Does anyone have any suggstions?
>>I was thinking about using a hacksaw to cut into the copper washer
>>thereby releaving the pressure etc etc.
>>but I'm stumped with this, I've never met a jammed sump plug.
>
>I've got ~4 saabs (99's and 900's) at the moment and the only way ive
>managed to get the sump plugs off any of them is by mutilating them
>with a hammer and chisel, or hammering a smaller socket on (12mm i
>think) and using a powerbar (you may want to put it on some axle
>stands first so that you can get under it).
>
>Once you get the initial movement, it will come off easily.
>
>when you finally get it off, www.partsforsaabs.com will sell you a new
>sump plug for £1.49. (genuine oil filters are a bargain from them
>too!)
>
>If you get stuck on your saab again, there are some great forums over
>at www.saabcentral.com

I've ordered a new sump plug now so I'm happier butchering this one
(it's already a mess) I have a bag of copper washers here somewhere,
in the back of the Land Rover I think.

I don't think fitting a smaller socket will help in this case (too
late for one thing) I was wondering about hacksawing the washer, would
that help?


Regards.
Mark.(AKA, Mr.Nice.)
--
___________________________________________________________
You need only two tools: WD-40 and Duct Tape. If it doesn't move and it should, use WD-40. If it moves and shouldn't, use the duct tape.
www.markvarleyphoto.co.uk
1984 110 CSW 2.5(na)D
___________________________________________________________



.................................................................
Posted via TITANnews - Uncensored Newsgroups Access
>>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<<
-=Every Newsgroup - Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

 
Twas Mon, 16 Aug 2004 18:16:06 +0000 (UTC) when "Richard Brookman"
<[email protected]> put finger to keyboard producing:

>Mr.Nice. wrote:
>> I'm having trouble removing the sump plug from my wifes 1990 saab 9000
>> turbo.
>> it simply will not turn.
>> I use a spanner at first then moved to a socket, now I've been trying
>> a grippy plumbers tool thing but it is just destroying the head of the
>> bolt and won't turn the plug.
>> Does anyone have any suggstions?
>> I was thinking about using a hacksaw to cut into the copper washer
>> thereby releaving the pressure etc etc.
>> but I'm stumped with this, I've never met a jammed sump plug.
>>
>>
>> Regards.
>> Mark.(AKA, Mr.Nice.)
>
>Massive Stilson wrench always works for me, but you'll need a new sump plug
>afterwards. (The angle of the jaws and the geometry of the pivot mean that
>a good Stilson cannot slip - you'll crush the bolt before it rounds it off.)
>Or try a hammer and cold chisel on the corners. New plug, etc. The shock
>should move the plug if you don't smash your hands first. :)

I've been using one of these yesterday
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/sea...q=&n=24587&pn=1&pd=1&pi=1&cn=1&cd=1&x=10&y=10
and it'd gripping and crushing the head of the bolt but not moving it.

most odd.


Regards.
Mark.(AKA, Mr.Nice.)
--
___________________________________________________________
You need only two tools: WD-40 and Duct Tape. If it doesn't move and it should, use WD-40. If it moves and shouldn't, use the duct tape.
www.markvarleyphoto.co.uk
1984 110 CSW 2.5(na)D
___________________________________________________________



.................................................................
Posted via TITANnews - Uncensored Newsgroups Access
>>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<<
-=Every Newsgroup - Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

 
On or around Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:37:31 +0100, Mr.Nice.
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>Twas Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:16:02 +0100 when Austin Shackles
><[email protected]> put finger to keyboard producing:
>
>>On or around Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:20:42 +0100, Mr.Nice.
>><[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>>
>>>I don't have anything hotter than a zippo to apply to it though.
>>
>>
>>whereabouts are you? I've got a welding torch...
>
>East Cornwall, PL13.

bet you're glad yer not in Boscastle. It's apparently a bit wet there ATM.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"If you cannot mould yourself as you would wish, how can you expect
other people to be entirely to your liking?"
Thomas À Kempis (1380 - 1471) Imitation of Christ, I.xvi.
 
On or around Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:32:11 +0100, Mr.Nice.
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>I've been using one of these yesterday
>http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/sea...q=&n=24587&pn=1&pd=1&pi=1&cn=1&cd=1&x=10&y=10
>and it'd gripping and crushing the head of the bolt but not moving it.
>
>most odd.
>

yer want one of these:

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=10800&ts=48789

making sure it's the 24" one.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
Blue: The sky is blue for a reason. Blue light is a source of strength
and harmony in the cosmos. Create a blue light in your life by
telephoning the police
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.
 
Twas Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:18:13 +0100 when Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> put finger to keyboard producing:

>On or around Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:37:31 +0100, Mr.Nice.
><[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>Twas Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:16:02 +0100 when Austin Shackles
>><[email protected]> put finger to keyboard producing:
>>
>>>On or around Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:20:42 +0100, Mr.Nice.
>>><[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>>>
>>>>I don't have anything hotter than a zippo to apply to it though.
>>>
>>>
>>>whereabouts are you? I've got a welding torch...
>>
>>East Cornwall, PL13.
>
>bet you're glad yer not in Boscastle. It's apparently a bit wet there ATM.

it is indeed somewhat soggy over there.


Regards.
Mark.(AKA, Mr.Nice.)
--
___________________________________________________________
You need only two tools: WD-40 and Duct Tape. If it doesn't move and it should, use WD-40. If it moves and shouldn't, use the duct tape.
www.markvarleyphoto.co.uk
1984 110 CSW 2.5(na)D
___________________________________________________________



.................................................................
Posted via TITANnews - Uncensored Newsgroups Access
>>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<<
-=Every Newsgroup - Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

 
On or around Wed, 18 Aug 2004 17:21:09 +0100, rads
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>Don't think you can harden copper in the same way (no phase change,
>and besides which it would melt!). You can work harden copper, but
>would agree that to fully anneal you should let it cool slowly, not
>quench.

see other post - copper's different. Play with a piece is best. If you
bend it backwards and forwards, it rapidly becomes stiffer (ooer) and then
breaks.

however, anneal it, by heating it to bright red and quenching, and it
becomes very soft.

and BTW, the modern collapsible washers can't be done like that, you need
nice solid copper ones.

I've got into the habit of making me own, in fact. Cut 'em out of a spare
piece of copper pipe, suitably opened up and flattened.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"There are three sorts of people in the world - those who can count,
and those who can't" (Anon)
 
Twas Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:21:28 +0100 when Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> put finger to keyboard producing:

>On or around Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:32:11 +0100, Mr.Nice.
><[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>I've been using one of these yesterday
>>http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/sea...q=&n=24587&pn=1&pd=1&pi=1&cn=1&cd=1&x=10&y=10
>>and it'd gripping and crushing the head of the bolt but not moving it.
>>
>>most odd.
>>
>
>yer want one of these:
>
>http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=10800&ts=48789
>
>making sure it's the 24" one.

more money... how sure can I be that this'll shift it? so-far I'm just
crushing the head of the nut....


Regards.
Mark.(AKA, Mr.Nice.)
--
___________________________________________________________
You need only two tools: WD-40 and Duct Tape. If it doesn't move and it should, use WD-40. If it moves and shouldn't, use the duct tape.
www.markvarleyphoto.co.uk
1984 110 CSW 2.5(na)D
___________________________________________________________



.................................................................
Posted via TITANnews - Uncensored Newsgroups Access
>>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<<
-=Every Newsgroup - Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

 
In article <[email protected]>, Austin Shackles wrote:
> On or around 18 Aug 2004 13:35:39 GMT, Simon Barr <[email protected]>
> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>Annealing is when you heat something up and let it cool slowly to soften
>>it or relieve stresses in the material.
>
> that's for steel, whereas
>
>>What you have described is quenching isn't it?
>
> yep. and that's for copper.
>
> get it as bright red as your nerves will stand, (remember that it melts at a
> lower temperature than steel) and dunk it in cold water. Afterwards, it'll
> be all soft and pliable. Copper work-hardens very quickly, so you anneal it
> in order that it's soft and makes a good seal when you refit it.
>

Cheers Austin.

Why is nothing ever nice and simple?

Like I said ealier I've never done this, I just reuse the washers if they
don't look too mangled. Next time I'll give this a go, maybe with a spare
to hand in case it melts :)

--
simon at sbarr dot demon dot co dot uk
Simon Barr.
'97 110 300Tdi.

I looked out my window, and saw Kyle Pettys' car upside down,
then I thought 'One of us is in real trouble'.
-- Davey Allison, on a 150 m.p.h. crash
 
On or around Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:15:24 +0100, Mr.Nice.
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>Twas Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:21:28 +0100 when Austin Shackles
><[email protected]> put finger to keyboard producing:
>
>>On or around Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:32:11 +0100, Mr.Nice.
>><[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>>
>>>I've been using one of these yesterday
>>>http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/sea...q=&n=24587&pn=1&pd=1&pi=1&cn=1&cd=1&x=10&y=10
>>>and it'd gripping and crushing the head of the bolt but not moving it.
>>>
>>>most odd.
>>>
>>
>>yer want one of these:
>>
>>http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=10800&ts=48789
>>
>>making sure it's the 24" one.
>
>more money... how sure can I be that this'll shift it? so-far I'm just
>crushing the head of the nut....


you can;t be sure, as such. But the pipe wrench is a thing which is
designed to grip round things and self-tightens. It shifts most things, and
leaves 'orrid great toothmarks in 'em, as well.

I've been using such on the disco sump plug, as I've yet to get tuits to
purchase the necessary 1.1/8" AF socket. why TF can't it be 1.1/16"? Then
the wheel nut spanner would fit. Buggrem.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"The breezy call of incense-breathing Morn, The swallow twittering
from the strawbuilt shed, The cock's shrill clarion, or the echoing
horn, No more shall rouse them from their lowly bed."
Thomas Gray, Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard.
 
On 18 Aug 2004 13:35:39 GMT, Simon Barr <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Austin Shackles wrote:
>>
>> fit a new washer unless it's a solid copper one (all mine are, I make 'em to
>> replace the crap collapsible ones that stuff is fitted with) in which case,
>> anneal the washer before refitting - heat it with a gas torch or similar
>> 'til it's bright red and then dunk it in cold water...
>>
>
>Does that stand for re-using any solid copper washer?
>
>I've reused them in the past but never annealed them first cos I didn't know
>you needed to.
>
>Hmm... Just checked that I really knew what annealing was.
>
>Annealing is when you heat something up and let it cool slowly to soften
>it or relieve stresses in the material.
>
>What you have described is quenching isn't it?
>
>I could understand how softening it might make it seal better when it gets
>re-used but quenching, doesn't that harden things? Or is that what's
>needed?

Quenching is usually applied to steel components.

Get fully hot (not going to quote temperatures or colours).
Quench to (near) instantly cool to give highest hardness but also low
ductility and brittleness.

Re-heat to lower "tempering" temperature to trade of some hardness for
less brittleness, more ductility and toughness.

Don't think you can harden copper in the same way (no phase change,
and besides which it would melt!). You can work harden copper, but
would agree that to fully anneal you should let it cool slowly, not
quench.

David
 
On or around 18 Aug 2004 13:35:39 GMT, Simon Barr <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>Annealing is when you heat something up and let it cool slowly to soften
>it or relieve stresses in the material.

that's for steel, whereas

>What you have described is quenching isn't it?

yep. and that's for copper.

get it as bright red as your nerves will stand, (remember that it melts at a
lower temperature than steel) and dunk it in cold water. Afterwards, it'll
be all soft and pliable. Copper work-hardens very quickly, so you anneal it
in order that it's soft and makes a good seal when you refit it.



--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
Soon shall thy arm, unconquered steam! afar Drag the slow barge, or
drive the rapid car; Or on wide-waving wings expanded bear the
flying chariot through the field of air.- Erasmus Darwin (1731-1802)
 
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