OT as it can get but.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4733820.stm

Having seen the holocaust with second hand eyes (a distant relative was an inmate with the number up the
arm & I actually saw it with my own eyes) I can safely say it really did happen. But, this does not make
me qualified to speak of the actions of evil men, it makes me able to comment on MY views of what I have
seen the actions of evil men to cause to others. (in my view)

Why has this man been jailed for his own views?

If I have missed something (I'm reasonably up on modern history) as to the reason this idiot (he is,
trust me) was jailed? Simply the Country's laws or a vendetta of some kind?

Not on either side of the fence, but, sometimes sense has to win?

BTW, if anyone does want to read up on this emotive subject, read Martin Gilberts' 'The Holocaust'
Utterly disturbing reading.

Nige

"Nige" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4733820.stm
>
> Having seen the holocaust with second hand eyes (a distant relative was an
> inmate with the number up the arm & I actually saw it with my own eyes) I
> can safely say it really did happen. But, this does not make me qualified
> to speak of the actions of evil men, it makes me able to comment on MY
> views of what I have seen the actions of evil men to cause to others. (in
> my view)
>
> Why has this man been jailed for his own views?
>
> If I have missed something (I'm reasonably up on modern history) as to the
> reason this idiot (he is, trust me) was jailed? Simply the Country's laws
> or a vendetta of some kind?
>
> Not on either side of the fence, but, sometimes sense has to win?
>
> BTW, if anyone does want to read up on this emotive subject, read Martin
> Gilberts' 'The Holocaust' Utterly disturbing reading.
>
> Nige

Yes its bad and thats an old law, in Austria it seems they are ashamed that
it was one of their citizens who started a war? and the law is penance I
guess. Read 1984 and look how todays laws are being framed there are too
many similarities for my liking
Derek

No-one seriously believes that the Holocaust didn't happen, but I find
it deeply worrying that in Europe we are jailing people for expressing
an opinion. Maybe a wrong opinion, but an opinion nevertheless. Every
other event in history is open to interpretation, and you can read a
variety of viewpoints. No doubt there are people who believe the
Battle of Marston Moor never happened. They are wrong (unless they can
convince me otherwise ... hence the need for free debate) but they are
free to give their view. But for one event in history (the holocaust)
there is now apparently an official version, sanctioned by governments,
and if you disagree with it, you go to prison. This is straight out of
the mind of George Orwell. I've read 1984 many times in the past, but
I am going to read it again soon, and I don't expect it to be very
comfortable reading.

There's also a bit of concern about the scope of the law. Denying the
holocaust is an offence, but David Irving only denied certain aspects
of the holocaust and he was convicted. What about someone who disputes
the number of Jews killed? Is that an offence? What if I say it was
"only" 5,999,999 and not 6 million? Do I go to jail for that? And who
decides where the line between denying and agreeing lies, and who is a
genuine historian and who is a racist villain? The government again?
A committee? Composed of whom? One of my best friends in all the
world is a Jew, and I'm not saying this from an anti-semitic viewpoint,
but I find the proposition that the government can throw someone in
jail for disagreeing with an official version of history to be more
disturbing than any ban on hunting, handguns, smoking or whatever.

And Abu Hamza was jailed for incitement to murder. Irving peacefully
expressed an opinion. There IS a difference.

Sorry to go on - pet hate.

DaveP

On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 23:28:40 -0000, "Nige"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4733820.stm
>
>Having seen the holocaust with second hand eyes (a distant relative was an inmate with the number up the
>arm & I actually saw it with my own eyes) I can safely say it really did happen. But, this does not make
>me qualified to speak of the actions of evil men, it makes me able to comment on MY views of what I have
>seen the actions of evil men to cause to others. (in my view)
>
>Why has this man been jailed for his own views?
>
>If I have missed something (I'm reasonably up on modern history) as to the reason this idiot (he is,
>trust me) was jailed? Simply the Country's laws or a vendetta of some kind?
>

Whilst agreeing that he is an idiot, and wrong, I sometimes wonder if
the people who fought in the wars against dictatorship,
totalitarianism and for the freedom and values that we held dear
weren't wasting thier time and lives. They must be turning in thier
graves.

It's funny really, were we now living under the heel of the Third
Riech, people would be being locked up expressing the opinion that the
holocaust *did* exist. Instead we have a supposedly democratic, free
group of states locking up people for stating an opinion that it
"doesn't" exist.

Irony isn't the word for it.

Oh, BTW, thanks to this governments craven terror to stand up to the
EU federalist dream, you can now be arrested in THIS country and
extradited to Austria, should you decided to express similar opinions
here, despite it not being an offence in this country.

Alex

Derek wrote:
> "Nige" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4733820.stm
>>
>> Having seen the holocaust with second hand eyes (a distant relative
>> was an inmate with the number up the arm & I actually saw it with my
>> own eyes) I can safely say it really did happen. But, this does not
>> make me qualified to speak of the actions of evil men, it makes me
>> able to comment on MY views of what I have seen the actions of evil
>> men to cause to others. (in my view)
>>
>> Why has this man been jailed for his own views?
>>
>> If I have missed something (I'm reasonably up on modern history) as
>> to the reason this idiot (he is, trust me) was jailed? Simply the
>> Country's laws or a vendetta of some kind?
>>
>> Not on either side of the fence, but, sometimes sense has to win?
>>
>> BTW, if anyone does want to read up on this emotive subject, read
>> Martin Gilberts' 'The Holocaust' Utterly disturbing reading.
>>
>> Nige
>
> Yes its bad and thats an old law, in Austria it seems they are
> ashamed that it was one of their citizens who started a war? and the
> law is penance I guess. Read 1984 and look how todays laws are being
> framed there are too many similarities for my liking
> Derek

Bear in mind that this sad nutter is a historian and people therefore were
more likely to give credence to his opinion, which made him a dangerous
influence. Just as we expect politicians, lawyers etc to set a high example
(naive, I know) so do we expect teachers to teach facts not opinions,
especially when the sphere of knowledge concerns such a sensitive matter.

But then again, the god-botherers seem to get away with pure opinion and
precious little facts in their pontifications .... but that's yet another
matter.

Karen


--
"I'd far rather be happy than right any day."
- Slartibartfast

....and Karen Gallagher spake unto the tribes of Usenet, saying...

> so do we expect teachers to teach
> facts not opinions,

But that's the point. The "facts" in history are few and far between - most
of what we call history is an interpretation of the little we know for
certain. To stay away from the holocaust for a minute, the fact that Europe
was at war between 1914 and 1918 is a fact. The reasons for the war, why
certain things happened as they did and the long-term results of that war
are very much matters of opinion, even 80+ years later. There may be a
general consensus as to the interpretation, but it's always open to someone
who does the research to offer an alternative explanation and have that
judged accordingly. Unless it refers to the holocaust, in which case the
interpretation is already decided by Government decree (in Austria and
Germany at least) and anyone who cares to question that interpretation is a
criminal. The laws on holocaust denial may be understandable in those
countries, but I still think free speech and open debate are too important
to sweep away because they are sometimes uncomfortable to listen to. The
fact that I have recently read some of Irving's words and I find his
opinions pretty unpleasant is irrelevant to his right to express them.

I worked for many years observing History teachers at close quarters, and I
can assure you that "facts" are the least of the things they teach. Compare
"Henry VIII died in 1547" with "now class, let's look at the causes of the
French Revolution."

--
Rich
==============================

There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary
and those who don't.

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 11:37:32 +1000, "Karen Gallagher"
<[email protected]> scribbled the following nonsense:


>(naive, I know) so do we expect teachers to teach facts not opinions,
>
>

Don't even go down that route... We are expected to "present the
facts in a clear unbiased format, free from prejudice and stereotypes"
--

Simon Isaacs

Peterborough 4x4 Club Newsletter Editor and Webmaster
Green Lane Association (GLASS) Financial Director
101 Ambi, undergoing camper conversion www.simoni.co.uk
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Series 3 88" Rolling chassis...what to do next
1993 200 TDi Discovery
1994 200 TDi Discovery body sheel, being bobbed and modded.....

"Karen Gallagher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Derek wrote:
>> "Nige" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4733820.stm
>>>
>>> Having seen the holocaust with second hand eyes (a distant relative
>>> was an inmate with the number up the arm & I actually saw it with my
>>> own eyes) I can safely say it really did happen. But, this does not
>>> make me qualified to speak of the actions of evil men, it makes me
>>> able to comment on MY views of what I have seen the actions of evil
>>> men to cause to others. (in my view)
>>>
>>> Why has this man been jailed for his own views?
>>>
>>> If I have missed something (I'm reasonably up on modern history) as
>>> to the reason this idiot (he is, trust me) was jailed? Simply the
>>> Country's laws or a vendetta of some kind?
>>>
>>> Not on either side of the fence, but, sometimes sense has to win?
>>>
>>> BTW, if anyone does want to read up on this emotive subject, read
>>> Martin Gilberts' 'The Holocaust' Utterly disturbing reading.
>>>
>>> Nige
>>
>> Yes its bad and thats an old law, in Austria it seems they are
>> ashamed that it was one of their citizens who started a war? and the
>> law is penance I guess. Read 1984 and look how todays laws are being
>> framed there are too many similarities for my liking
>> Derek
>
> Bear in mind that this sad nutter is a historian and people therefore were
> more likely to give credence to his opinion, which made him a dangerous
> influence. Just as we expect politicians, lawyers etc to set a high
> example
> (naive, I know) so do we expect teachers to teach facts not opinions,
> especially when the sphere of knowledge concerns such a sensitive matter.
>
> But then again, the god-botherers seem to get away with pure opinion and
> precious little facts in their pontifications .... but that's yet another
> matter.
>
> Karen
>
Historian he may be but as the world and his dog are aware he is discredited
and has been for a good while.Any credance he may have is mainly restricted
to the folk (volks)
who have poorly spelt tattoos and highly polished boots and no law will
change their views.IMO this prosecution merely adds to his noteriety and
probably book sales. So far as teaching facts goes that horse is well out of
the stable most of the facts I was taught in the 60's are discredited
beyond belief and not just scientific facts the quaint episode we called the
history of the British Empire appears not so great and so bad that the prime
minister takes every opportunity to apologise for it. BTW I can hardly wait
for the slimey *** to remember his religions faults and apologise for the
Spanish Inquisition
Derek
Nobody expects the spanish
inquisition.........................................

Simon Isaacs wrote:

> Don't even go down that route... We are expected to "present the
> facts in a clear unbiased format, free from prejudice and stereotypes"

As long as you point out to the kids that every historian will present
their "facts" in whatever light they want them to appear and that the
kids should research for themselves rather than taking as gospel
everything that is taught to them. You know you're doing your job
right when they start looking for alternative viewpoints and discussing
them rather than simply regurgitating whatever is in their textbooks!

Regards

William MacLeod

In message <[email protected]>
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Simon Isaacs wrote:
>
> > Don't even go down that route... We are expected to "present the
> > facts in a clear unbiased format, free from prejudice and stereotypes"
>
> As long as you point out to the kids that every historian will present
> their "facts" in whatever light they want them to appear and that the
> kids should research for themselves rather than taking as gospel
> everything that is taught to them. You know you're doing your job
> right when they start looking for alternative viewpoints and discussing
> them rather than simply regurgitating whatever is in their textbooks!
>
> Regards
>
> William MacLeod
>

......and tell them to use books - history is busily being re-written
on the web. No prizes for guessing who is doing the re-writing, but
a site I looked at the other day on the web had the Yanks winning the
Battle of the Atlantic! And 2.5 years of neutrality wasn't exactly
over-emphasised. And the bit in "The Cruel Sea" about Irelands
neutrality and it's effect on the war I've never seen mentioned at all.....
and don't get me going about the re-writing of the Chindits history....
and I never realised that Concorde was French, we just paid for it.....

I'll get me coat.....

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
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