On the verge of tears

Must have been the tears that blinded me resulting in a bad entry, but here is what I wanted to say:


I do have a challenge to you all. The Landrover workshop guys have not been able to solve the problem: So now it is up to you, please.
I have a 1996 Disco I
The handsett (fob) usually works perfect, but then suddenly, when parking trying to lock the doors or when trying to open the doors after parking, the fobs does not work.
I can open the doors with the door code but I cannot start the engine because the immobilizer has not got the right info from the theft alarm.
After moving the car or after waiting suddenly it does start again, and may work without problems for days. parking in the same spot is no problem (i.e.: no interference from radio transmissions) And then normally under the worst conditions (full car going on holiday or in cats-and-dogs rain it does not work.

The LR guys have tried replacing the radio receiver part, the fobs, almost everything Nothing works - until the Disco decides to be kind again. It has by now spent almost three months in the workshop.

So it is not interference, it is not week batteries in the fobs.
Sometimes (but could be coincidal) it happend more often in burning sun (I am speaking about 30 degs C pluss) or in wet weather.

I have given up as have the LR guys.
But I think it should be possible to ground the starting solenoid and bypass the blocking of the fuel pump, so I could start the Disco when it is in bad moods. But how?
No, i do not want anyone to give an answer in the forum, but if there is anyone out there that knows the answer I beg you to give the answer to my workshop guys so they can implement it.

As it is I do not dear to use the car becasue suddenly i am stranded in nowhere.

Please, I am on the verge of crying........
Thanks.

stranded in nowhere is that next door to limbo??
i take it these peeps have checked all connections and earths? cos it sounds like an intermitted leccy problem which will be caused by a bad connection somewhere. i would suggest on a printed circuit but you say they have changed all that. so next place to look would be a bad earth or loose plug.

Thanks - but I do really hope they have checked for theses things. And as they have had the things out and put in new ones the grounding should be OK

and if they put all new bits in it should work ok

Where abouts are you? Give Jamesons a call on 0121 333 3556, they know about this sort of thing. If you'r nowhere near them, they might be able to point out a fix.

I have found and listed a number of possible causes, but having read my post before sending it, I think your fault is possibly the spider immobiliser. Read on............

Not sure if the Disco 1 has a BECM (like the Disco 2 has), but that seems to be a common cause with this particular fault.

Isn't there a code to disable the immobiliser (EKA?)

I found this in a different search, but it was for a Disco 2: -

"Have just spoke to Land Rover Customer Services.She says try to get an emergency key access number from Main Dealers over the phone tommorow and that should bypass engine immobiliser.
Have just tried a 4 digit code i found hand written in the handbook(real long shot i know but im desperate)Using the sequence in the handbook of:
1 Turn key to lock
2 turn key unlock 3 times
3 turn key lock 3 times
4 turn key unlock 1 time
5 turn key lock 1 time
Unlock and it should be over-ridden"

I also found this info too: -

"When i lost the key and fob for my `93 3.9 Classic I thought I was totally stuffed. The thing was in my driveway so no problems there but it was imobilised. Called the RAC eventually to see if they could suggest anything.
The guy took the fuse out of the box inside the car for the central locking ..put the key in ignition, turned on and off several times..it then started much to my surprise. He put the fuse in again while it was running and then turned it off. It would not restart, so he repeated the sequence and started again, put the fuse back in and switched off. It restarted this time with the fuse in and that was that. I had no fob but could lock and alarm with the key so less convenient but ok.
I would check with these guys first, they often take a bit of stick I know but they are probably experts at solving lost key and fob problems..they must get them every week, the guy that came to me had a quick look on his laptop, then phoned a colleague and in about two minutes I was back on the road..great service. As a point of interest my local LR dealer who I reckon to be pretty good hadn`t a clue about what he had done..they had wanted to tow it to the workshop and suggested that it could be a lengthy job altering the wiring to bypass the imobiliser..makes you think..anyway good luck and I hope a P38 is the same as the Classic."

Check this out too, it MAY be what you are looking for (if you have a 2-button key fob): -

"A common failure on Discovery Series 1 vehicles (both Tdi & V8) with the two-button alarm system (i.e. all vehicles from 1996 model year to 1998 model year) is a component called the "spider".

Symptoms of this failure are typically an intermittent non-start or cutting out while driving (or both), which usually gets progressively worse until it is happening very regularly. Typically you will find that leaving the vehicle from a few minutes to a few hours will allow it to be started, only for the fault to repeat later on.

The spider unit is a small black box of relays, controlled by the immobiliser & alarm, mounted on a panel just in front of (toward the front of the vehicle) and below the radiocassette slot - a very inconvenient position which is designed to be very inaccessible to thieves in a hurry. This contains relays which isolate various key circuits of the vehicle; the feed to the fuel solenoid, and the feed to the starter solenoid on a 300Tdi, and ignition, fuel and starting circuits on a V8. A combination of heat, vibration and a not very good quality circuit board eventually results in a dry solder joint on the circuit tracks inside this unit, which often then get hot and burn out completely. It happened to my 1996MY Discovery V8i, the first one I ever saw with the problem in about 1998/99, and it took me about three months to find the fault by which time I was not in a very good mood ... the purpose of this post is to prevent anybody else having to relive the level of irritation I faced with a vehicle which would sometimes start, sometimes not, sometimes cut out while driving and then come back to life while coasting to a stop, sometimes die at junctions, sometimes die for an hour or more at a time.

So far, I have seen the fault affect both the fuel and cranking circuits on different 300Tdi vehicles, and the ignition circuits on my V8. I assume it can also affect the other circuits on the V8.

Diagnosis.

Before you do anything else check all the fuses and that the battery is OK - it's really very annoying to pull everything to bits only to find a blown fuse somewhere! The next thing to do is to check that the immobiliser is not actually active - if it is, there will be a red "key" symbol in the dash when you try to start the engine - and if there is then the problem is elsewhere, perhaps the alarm ECU, key fob programming or whatever.

First you need to identify and check the offending circuit. Does the vehicle crank and not fire, or does it not crank over?

If it cranks but does not fire, then the problem is in the fuel solenoid circuit on a Tdi, or ignition/fuel on a V8.

Take a digital voltmeter (DVM) and check if the fuel solenoid (Tdi) or ignition coil/fuel pump (V8) has a 12 volt supply to it by connecting the meter to the relevant blade connector and earth and turning the key to position 1 (on). If there is a 12 volt supply to the circuit, then the fault probably lies elsewhere. (Note that a dry joint may not always provide a perfect break in the circuit; on my own vehicle, it caused a voltage drop at the coil which was only apparent once you started cranking. As a result all appeared OK at rest, but when you tried to crank there was no spark. As I "knew" there was power to the coil, I didn't look at this any further, so it took rather a long time to find out that the power consumption when cranking was causing a voltage drop at the coil, which in turn caused the ignition amplifier module to cut out).

The connectors you are looking for are:

- The small blade connector on the back of a 300Tdi fuel pump, down by where the injector pipes come out
- The + connector on the coil of a V8
...if it's the V8 fuel pump you're on your own as I haven't had that out!

If there is no voltage at the circuit in question, then the next stage is to take the spider unit out - jump down to Repair.

If it does not crank, then the problem is in the starter circuit (Tdi or V8, much the same on both). Take the thin lead off the starter solenoid on top of the starter motor, and stick a DVM between it and a good earth. Turn the key to position II (start). You should get 12 volts across the meter. If you do, then the fault is most likely with the starter motor ... but to be sure, put the lead back on, stick the meter probe into the back of the connector, and operate the starter again. If the voltage is still present but the starter isn't doing anything, it will be the starter. If the voltage does not appear under load, it will probably be the spider unit. Time to take the dash out...

Repair

Removing the spider unit

This is fun. Really fun in only the way that a dashboard with lots of fiddly little screws and bits that you can drop in inaccessible locations can be... allow 2-3 hours at least. You don't need many tools, in fact I think only a couple of Philips screwdrivers, a soldering iron/solder, and something to make some clock keys out of, plus the radio removal keys for your particular type of radio.

I suggest you get hold of a workshop manual for this as it makes life easier if you know what order to take things out in and where all the screws are hidden but a brief rundown is below -- sorry if I have forgotten anything but it's a while since I took one out.

- Disconnect the vehicle battery
- Remove the radio (you will need radio keys for this) and its cage
- Remove the ashtray & the blank switch panel on the opposite side (they just pull out)
- Remove the clock on one side and coin tray on the other (easiest way is to get 2 flat bits of metal about credit card thickness, slide in above and below the clock to release the retaining tabs and it just slides out)
- Remove the twin pop out cupholders (about six screws)
- Pull off the 3 rotary heating/ventilation controls
- Unscrew and remove the plastic surround to these
- Unscrew the heater controls so you can move the unit around

You will now be pretty much at the stage of being able to take the black centre console panel out ... so take the screws out and wriggle it out. It tends to catch on things but will pop out with a bit of a tug. The face vents etc come out with the console.

Behind all this you will find a small black box screwed to a metal face which slopes towards you at about 45 degrees. It has two screws holding it in and a 10 pin multiplug coming out the RH side which is covered up by a metal security plate so you can't easily disconnect it. Take the unit out. This is a "sealed for life unit" which it is not possible to repair. Ignore that sentence.

You will see that on the end of the box where the connector is, the plate is a press-in fit. Get a small flatblade screwdriver and lever out the end plate, working your way round until it pops out. The whole circuit board will slide out.

Look on the back of the circuit board (the solder side). Chances are the fault will be immediately obvious, if it is a little blackened and burned, but if not, examine all the solder joints carefully, if the unit has failed in the normal way there will be a "dry joint" (where the solder joint has cracked up making a bad connection) on one of the larger pins on the board. Basically all you need to do is to get a decent fairly high powered soldering iron with a small point on it (I use a 40 watt) and re-solder the broken connections. Depending on how much you enjoyed taking the unit out, you might also want to do all the other relay and connector pins while you are in there - it makes sense.

As an option of course you can replace the unit, I think it costs about £40 or so and the part number is on the unit, usually AMR4889.

Put the box back together once it has cooled off a bit, and connect it up. At this point it makes sense to test the system before you put everything back in ... so reconnect the battery and fire it up - hopefully everything will now work!

Assuming it does the remaining steps are simple:

- disconnect the battery again,
- throw all the dash back in,
- congratulate yourself on fixing a unit that isn't supposed to be fixed
- reconnect battery, set clock & radio code etc etc."

Further info that seems to point to the above cause being a good place to start: -

"Since I replaced spider immobiliser with replacement link part no AMR4956 my Disco 300 Tdi starts even in very cold. (Today it was -13 C here in Oslo Norway.) Everything else works fine. So to conclude: immobiliser unit gets temperature sensitive with years. When I examined the unit I noticede blackened and burned solder joints."


If you have a one button fob, The one button remote immobiliser only disconnects the starter motor, maybe this is the route of the problem.

Hope this helps!

Thanks for a quick and long answer.
First there is a EKA code: it stops the alarm but does not cut out the immobilizer.
The car has an ECM and the fuel pump is stopped and the starter solenoid is "disconnected ".
I will try to phone the gentleman whose telephonenumber you so kindly provided, allthough I am in Norway.
I will try the trick with the fuse - allthough it sounds "crazy"

All the normal things have been checked e.g. batteries etc. It could definitely be a cold solder or a bad grounding, but they changed with two different new ones and the problem remained.

When the fob does not work I cannot open the doors in the normal way and when I use the key (alarm stopped with EKA) and try to start the immobilizer red light is coming on.
When it is running it NEVER stops or run faulty. It runs until I stop it in the regular way. But then it may or may not start again.
I will try to get the car released from the workshop and try working on it on my own, although minus degrees does not exactly make it a pleasant job.
Thank you for all the tip. But I am also looking for how to find the relay that cuts out the ground connection for the starter solenoid and for the fuel pump solenoid. If I knew where to find these relays I could use a switch as an emergency item.
Thanks again

abutoma said:

Thanks for a quick and long answer.
First there is a EKA code: it stops the alarm but does not cut out the immobilizer.
The car has an ECM and the fuel pump is stopped and the starter solenoid is "disconnected ".
I will try to phone the gentleman whose telephonenumber you so kindly provided, allthough I am in Norway.
I will try the trick with the fuse - allthough it sounds "crazy"

All the normal things have been checked e.g. batteries etc. It could definitely be a cold solder or a bad grounding, but they changed with two different new ones and the problem remained.

When the fob does not work I cannot open the doors in the normal way and when I use the key (alarm stopped with EKA) and try to start the immobilizer red light is coming on.
When it is running it NEVER stops or run faulty. It runs until I stop it in the regular way. But then it may or may not start again.
I will try to get the car released from the workshop and try working on it on my own, although minus degrees does not exactly make it a pleasant job.
Thank you for all the tip. But I am also looking for how to find the relay that cuts out the ground connection for the starter solenoid and for the fuel pump solenoid. If I knew where to find these relays I could use a switch as an emergency item.
Thanks again

Click to expand...

What did they 'change with two different new ones'?

Is your fob a 1 button or 2 button type?

I am not sure if LR do them for the Disco 1, but ask an LR Dealer for a 'bypass plug'. I believe it bypasses the ECU/Immobiliser, and it costs about £15 from LR. Some LR Dealers have heard of them, some haven't so try another Dealer if the first one you ask hasn't heard of it.

Also, I found this post 'somewhere else' .

"Just got an AMR4956 at 2.38 pounds from "Paddock". Will be installed tommorow. Mornings are still cold here in Norway (down to -8, -10C) - perfect for ultimate test. Will let you know.
Ivan B.M. Norway."

"Since I replaced spider immobiliser with replacement link part no AMR4956 my Disco 300 Tdi starts even in very cold. (Today it was -13 C here in Oslo Norway.) Everything else works fine. So to conclude: immobiliser unit gets temperature sensitive with years. When I examined the unit I noticede blackened and burned solder joints." Again, Ivan B.M.


You really should consider this, it is a cheap way of possibly fixing your fault. It seems that the spider is susceptible to broken and damaged joints, in both hot and cold conditions. I suspect that with the variations in temperature in your country (cold and very cold ), this might be the answer!

BTW, the factory immobiliser unit is behind the stereo,on top of the heater box. You can repair the spider unit, as it is acommon fault. It just requires taking the spider unit out, dismantling and a little soldering.

Lastly, try rigging a feed from the battery+ to the + side of the coil and see if it starts. I'm not sure whether that will bypass the immobiliser (and I'm certainly no electrician!), but it might work.

FYI, The immobiliser "spider unit" interrupts power to the starter solenoid, and to the fuel solenoid, when ordered to by the immobiliser (or rather, it works the other way round, giving them power when the immobiliser wakes up happy).
What happens is that the circuit tracks on the board inside the spider burn out, a combination of slightly inadequate tracks for the current transmitted, slightly inadequate soldering and slightly too much vibration, the solder joints around the relays fracture, get hot (dry joint = poor connection) and burn out.
To get at it you need to pull the centre facia panel out, that's the one with the radio & heater controls in. It's a bugger to get out and there are loads of hidden screws, you really want a workshop manual. The box of tricks is mounted at a 45 degree angle, pretty much below and in front of (ie towards the engine bay) the radio location, with a multiplug sticking out the RH side shielded by a metal bracket. Among other things you need to take out the radio, heater controls, drinks tray, clock, coin tray and then the main panel itself to get at the box - it is about 3x3x1 inches I guess.
Once you have it out, it comes apart quite easily, just need a penknife or a small screwdriver to prise it open. Look closely at the soldered side of the circuit board (ie the side with no components on) in particular the larger solder joints where the relays go on. You'll probably find one or more is burnt out. Either get a new one (think they are £40 odd) or fix the old one, by resoldering all the broken joints with fresh solder, and do all the other relay solder joints and those on the multiplug socket while you are in there. Stick it all back in and see what happens.

Lastly, something else I found: -

"If you use the EKA (Emergency Key Access) code to disable the alarm it should also disable the immobiliser for a limited period - but you must start the engine immediately or it will re-engage passively after I think 30 seconds or a minute or something".

Thanks for the hints for possible solutions.
What I think is that nothing can be wrong with the spider since if the central locking is working then everything is OK. If the central locking is not working then I cannot start the engine.
So unless the spider can influence the central locking system i think I have to look for the fault another place.
I have a 2 knob fob.
And I have a diesel engine so there is not much of a coil.
But my question is still how to install an emergency "jump" for the starter solenoid and the fuel pump.
If I could find that out I could live with a moody Disco.

abutoma said:

Thanks for the hints for possible solutions.
What I think is that nothing can be wrong with the spider since if the central locking is working then everything is OK. If the central locking is not working then I cannot start the engine.
So unless the spider can influence the central locking system i think I have to look for the fault another place.
I have a 2 knob fob.
And I have a diesel engine so there is not much of a coil.
But my question is still how to install an emergency "jump" for the starter solenoid and the fuel pump.
If I could find that out I could live with a moody Disco.

Click to expand...

As I see it, this is an INTERMITTENT fault, the fault comes and goes, therefore, if your central locking is working, of course you WILL be able to start the car, if the central locking ISN'T working, then that means the fault has reappeared and of course then you WON'T be able to start your car!

The fact that you have a 2-button fob adds further weight to this assumption. The central locking is linked to the immobiliser system.

I may be wrong, but for the sake of a few pounds and a couple of hours of your own labour (and someone who can solder PCB's) you should consider the repair.

Will anybody back this up, or am I barking up the wrong tree?

abutoma said:

But my question is still how to install an emergency "jump" for the starter solenoid and the fuel pump.
If I could find that out I could live with a moody Disco.

Click to expand...

Did you not read my bit in the post about a bypass plug? And remember, that the engine will not immobilise when it is running, only when you try to gain 'unlawful entry', which it thinks you are trying to do when the fault reappears (when the electrical contact on the spider is separated, due to heat/cold input(shrinkage/expansion)).

i think the spider is a very good contender for the fault.
heat etc will effect an electronic component more than a mechanical one.
ie a pcb.

Petrol or Diesel??????????

If it was a diesel I would be trying:Ignition on,a + wire direct from the battery to the fuel cut off solonoid,another + from the battery to the glow plugs if you think you will need them but only briefly 3/4 seconds and then a bit of meaty wire directly to the starter motor to see if that'l start the bitch up!!

Not a long term solution but worth a try to get you home on a cold winter night.

Had the same problem with a Frontera 2 years ago, after many times in the garage on the computer, took it to an old chap who " dose car electrics "
foud the problem in 1/2 hour, it was fitted with a power sounder, which worked when the bonnet was lifted or the battery dissconected, this had it's own 9v. battery which is supposed to be charged from the car,disconected it and no futher problems, hope this helps.

whats a power sounder?

It's a device that was fitted to Frontera's, when i had all the problems with it i phoned Vauxhall in Luton, got through to the workshop manager and and asked him what it's function was, they had had reports of the battery leads being cut and the vehicles being stolen, ( which by passed the alarm ) the power sounder was fitted ( with it' own battery ) so when the battery lead was cut, the power sounder started blowing the horn, ( this is what i was told ) but the problems i had was the same as ( close to tears ) when disconnected i had no more problems.

abutoma said:

Must have been the tears that blinded me resulting in a bad entry, but here is what I wanted to say:


I do have a challenge to you all. The Landrover workshop guys have not been able to solve the problem: So now it is up to you, please.
I have a 1996 Disco I
The handsett (fob) usually works perfect, but then suddenly, when parking trying to lock the doors or when trying to open the doors after parking, the fobs does not work.
I can open the doors with the door code but I cannot start the engine because the immobilizer has not got the right info from the theft alarm.
After moving the car or after waiting suddenly it does start again, and may work without problems for days. parking in the same spot is no problem (i.e.: no interference from radio transmissions) And then normally under the worst conditions (full car going on holiday or in cats-and-dogs rain it does not work.

The LR guys have tried replacing the radio receiver part, the fobs, almost everything Nothing works - until the Disco decides to be kind again. It has by now spent almost three months in the workshop.

So it is not interference, it is not week batteries in the fobs.
Sometimes (but could be coincidal) it happend more often in burning sun (I am speaking about 30 degs C pluss) or in wet weather.

I have given up as have the LR guys.
But I think it should be possible to ground the starting solenoid and bypass the blocking of the fuel pump, so I could start the Disco when it is in bad moods. But how?
No, i do not want anyone to give an answer in the forum, but if there is anyone out there that knows the answer I beg you to give the answer to my workshop guys so they can implement it.

As it is I do not dear to use the car becasue suddenly i am stranded in nowhere.

Please, I am on the verge of crying........
Thanks.

Click to expand...

YOU KEY FOB IS BUCKED also if parking near overhead power lines i've found they do something to the alarm sensor that will eat fob batteries..
try this code by turning door key /= right \=left ....turn key full in one direction them back to middle

door lock / HOLD FOR 5+ seconds (forward)

then\ 15 times (forward)

13 / times (back)

10 \ times (forward)

15 / times (back)

FINALY / once forward .....

IF OK WILL GET A SINGLE BLEEP FROM ALARM.........
NOW WAIT 5 MINS BEFORE OPENING DOOR ALARM LIGHT SHOULD STOP FLASHING ON DISPLAY YOU HAVE ONLY 30 SECONDS!!!!!! TO START VEHICLE OR RE-DO ALL AGAIN !!!!! ....

O N C E R U N N I N G DO NOT STOP MOTOR AS WILL NOT RESTART TILL ALL ABOVE REDONE OR NEW BATTERY FITTED within 30 seconds and if slow DO ALL ABOVE AGAIN !!!!!!!

KEEP A COPY OF THIS CODE WITH YOU AND DON'T GET MUGGED BY THE L/R GUY'S FOR A NEW KEY @ £160+

If your fob battery is flat this is a get you home till battery is replaced if taking over 30 seconds to replace battery you need to do above to reset key !!!...
SOOTY

Surely the combination of left & right turns on the key will not be the same for all Disco's or we could all go round starting each others engines.
Its exactly the same system as on Rover cars so a few questions on some of the Rover forums might get more answers.
The Spider sounds like a good place to start & if there is a bypass link available from LR that would be a very good purchase.
At the end of the day, a diesel doesnt need much to run... +12v to the fuel shutoff solenoid on the pump & a jumplead to the starter/ starter solenoid is enough to start it.
A petrol engine ( provided it doesnt have an ecu) doesnt need much more to get it running.

remove your battery and try but better still keep code i have used on 4 disco's!
but for christs sake ! make sure a RENAULT ESPACE don't sneak up on you heheheh they eat DISCO'S