METAL DRILL BITS???

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BLASER said:
It makes me sad that there are so few skilled engineers out there now I love my job I get to play with very big machines making /salvage parts for them
where I work we have a full machine shop I still get to do some screw cutting on the lathes ect very rare you see that now
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My God can't remember last time I did half angle screw cutting, I sometimes see angle gauges for sale on e bay and wonder how many people must look at them and wonder what they are for, it also makes me sad to see old micrometers etc advertised as "from my late fathers garage" makes me want to buy them clean them up and preserve them, not sure why though I have two sons neither of which could read a micrometer or understand why anyone would want to.
 
raywin said:
Similar reason why I run my defender, instead of buying a BMW 4 X 4
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Trying to explain why I'd prefer to buy a knackered version of something " because then I won't feel bad cutting it up and turning into what I actually want" often receives blank or confused expressions ;)
 
It seems blank expressions are at epidemic proportions these days, :confused: long since ceased to worry or explain, had time to work out what I actually want.
 
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Well, these things always were minority skills. The scarcity of these kinds of things was what kept all those old blokes with flat caps and brown overalls and pencils behind their ears in business. Not everybody could do practical engineering.

When I was a kid my appetite for tools was limited to what you could get in Woolworths or Halfords in my local town, or the occasional thing you could find in second hand shops or by rummaging through dead people's sheds. Even items as everyday as taps and dies were hard to come by. It's so much easier now with tools of every shape, size, colour and creed known to humanity available from online suppliers and/or Ebay. Plus Youtube is full of videos of people welding, turning, broaching, jointing planing and the like so it's a lot easier picking up tips and techniques.

I love old tools as much as anyone, but (and this sounds heretical) a lot of them are crap. Micrometers with slack in the mechanism, lathes with incurable wobbles in the headstock bearings, drills that seem to be made out of toffee, soft spanners with elastic jaws. I know because I've taken them home and lovingly cleaned them up. OK, some have got a bit the worse for wear through a long hard working life, but our forbears were just as likely to have rubbish tools as we were, only they'd often be home made rather than Chinese in those days.
 
Almost since the start of the industrial revolution there has been a continuing movement to take the skill out of the man and put it in the tool. Once upon a time an engineer could take basic tools and materials and make things. Nowadays a "skilled man" knows how to operate a particular machine or process, but the accuracy is provided by the machine. We who are older have seen the trend from repairing things to replacing things. The computer tells them what is wrong, and they fit a new one.
They call it progress.
 
Sheffield said:
Almost since the start of the industrial revolution there has been a continuing movement to take the skill out of the man and put it in the tool. Once upon a time an engineer could take basic tools and materials and make things. Nowadays a "skilled man" knows how to operate a particular machine or process, but the accuracy is provided by the machine. We who are older have seen the trend from repairing things to replacing things. The computer tells them what is wrong, and they fit a new one.
They call it progress.
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That sir is the most intelligent posts I have ever read on here.
 
I've been a computer engineer for over 25 years and the same thing is happing in that industry.
But as for sharpening bits I was never taught how to do it so my bits are all strange angles now but they still work. Good tip on how to harden them again here, Thanks Brown.
Brown said:
The other thing that might help is if the drill bit has overheated (often shown by being a bluish colour) it might benefit from being hardened and re-tempered. The hardening bit involves heating it to red heat and quenching suddenly (I use water, some people prefer oil). Then if you clean a bit of the oxide off so you can see the colour of the metal you heat it again, only not so hot this time. Traditionally, people used to tell the temperature by the colour of the oxide layers. which change as the metal heats up. 'Dark straw' or 'brown-purple' is about where you want to be. If you go too far, just re-harden and start again. Even cheap drill bits can sometimes be made quite tough by a quick harden and temper. As a teenager I used to sit watching the telly doing this in a blowtorch flame with the family's stock of drill bits after my father and brother had blunted them all. Nowadays I have less time and more money so I tend to just order some more drills.
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Sheffield said:
Almost since the start of the industrial revolution there has been a continuing movement to take the skill out of the man and put it in the tool. Once upon a time an engineer could take basic tools and materials and make things. Nowadays a "skilled man" knows how to operate a particular machine or process, but the accuracy is provided by the machine. We who are older have seen the trend from repairing things to replacing things. The computer tells them what is wrong, and they fit a new one.
They call it progress.
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it is progress isnt it in general,
 
I served my time on old British and American lathes, mills, slotters, planers etc and they were great machines. You had to know the machine though and allow for "throw" as we called it. Wear in other words. That was part of the skill of the operator.
As for drills, we were taught early on how to sharpen these. We used an angle that showed cutting edge lengths were equal (two bits of angle iron welded at 90° with white chalk on one face and a pin on the other that the drill shank end located on). You must ensure there is clearance behind the cutting edge or it wont cut. Never twist the drill against the grinding stone. Vertical movement only as this ensures the clearance. I have stuck by this and can always get a good cutting drill bit.
 
meego said:
I served my time on old British and American lathes, mills, slotters, planers etc and they were great machines. You had to know the machine though and allow for "throw" as we called it. Wear in other words. That was part of the skill of the operator.
As for drills, we were taught early on how to sharpen these. We used an angle that showed cutting edge lengths were equal (two bits of angle iron welded at 90° with white chalk on one face and a pin on the other that the drill shank end located on). You must ensure there is clearance behind the cutting edge or it wont cut. Never twist the drill against the grinding stone. Vertical movement only as this ensures the clearance. I have stuck by this and can always get a good cutting drill bit.
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gauge like this
472011-1.jpg
 
Ok well, I just wanted to say...

The bits I was using when I first started this thread were brand new.

I have since bought some of the Dormer bits as suggested.

They have turned what was a nightmare into a piece of cake.

So thankyou.

Oh and regards the topic of disappearing skills...try it across the water where I am.

Its a nightmare trying to find anybody to fabricate and genuinely repair things (botching excluded)

Every nifty custom bit I have had made for my current Land Rover has been from mainland UK as every single time, I spend weeks going from door to door here, being fed garbage about how this is impossible, that's impossible...lots of 'ooohs and ahhhhs'...faces contorting etc. The odd time, I get someone who reluctantly says the could do it...only to hit me with a price that leaves me feeling sick.

Yet every time...quick email to someone on mainland UK quickly turns into the exact thing I wanted in a very short time, delivered to my door, usually after being to the galvanisers first...and still 200 cheaper than the insane prices I'm quoted locally.

I posted on here yonks ago regards restoring LR panels. I lost count of how many people replied as if it weren't that big a deal to get somebody to repair them. Well...I carried a truck cab roof in my boot for 3 MONTHS!!! I stopped at every likely place, every recommended person, literally anywhere I came across when out working, out with family etc. Not one single person would touch it unless they could fill and paint.

Yet my friend jumped on Ferry to mainland about 9 weeks ago on a Monday with a wonky roof and 4 wings...and came back Wed evening with every one looking as good as new and without a dab of filler.

I love Ireland, but a true craftsmans mecca it certainly aint! I'm sure theres got to be a few...I just haven't found them
 
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HYBRIDNI said:
Ok well, I just wanted to say...

The bits I was using when I first started this thread were brand new.

I have since bought some of the Dormer bits as suggested.

They have turned what was a nightmare into a piece of cake.

So thankyou.

Oh and regards the topic of disappearing skills...try it across the water where I am.

Its a nightmare trying to find anybody to fabricate and genuinely repair things.

Every nifty custom bit I have had made up for my Land Rover has been from mainland UK as every single time, I spend weeks going from door to door here, being fed garbage about how this is impossible, that's impossible...lots of 'ooohs and ahhhhs'...faces contorting etc. The odd time, I get someone who reluctantly says the could do it...only to hit me with a price that leaves me feeling sick.

Yet every time...quick email to someone on mainland UK quickly turns into the exact thing I wanted in a very short time, delivered to my door, usually after being to the galvanisers first...and still 200 cheaper than the insane prices I'm quoted locally.

I posted on here yonks ago regards restoring LR panels. I lost count of how many people replied as if it weren't that big a deal to get somebody to repair them. Well...I carried a truck cab roof in my boot for 3 MONTHS!!! I stopped at every likely place, every recommended person, literally anywhere I came across when out working, out with family etc. Not one single person would touch it unless they could fill and paint.

Yet my friend jumped on Ferry to mainland about 6 weeks ago on the Monday with a wonky roof and 4 wings...and came back Wed evening with every one looking as good as new and without a dab of filler.

I love Ireland, but a true craftsmans mecca it certainly aint! I'm sure theres got to be a few...I just haven't found them
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They make good whiskey, that is a craft
 
Unfortunately there is no history of automotive engineering in NI apart from the DeLorean debacle. There are a few Landy specialists but I don't know how good they would be at repairing panels. I guess contacting some of the old car clubs would be your best hope, my dad used to be in the Down Old Car Club but I suspect most of the work on their cars is done by the guys themselves.
I don't suppose shipyard skills are much use on a Landy cab. :rolleyes:
 
HYBRIDNI said:
Ok well, I just wanted to say...

The bits I was using when I first started this thread were brand new.

I have since bought some of the Dormer bits as suggested.

They have turned what was a nightmare into a piece of cake.

So thankyou.

Oh and regards the topic of disappearing skills...try it across the water where I am.

Its a nightmare trying to find anybody to fabricate and genuinely repair things (botching excluded)

Every nifty custom bit I have had made for my current Land Rover has been from mainland UK as every single time, I spend weeks going from door to door here, being fed garbage about how this is impossible, that's impossible...lots of 'ooohs and ahhhhs'...faces contorting etc. The odd time, I get someone who reluctantly says the could do it...only to hit me with a price that leaves me feeling sick.

Yet every time...quick email to someone on mainland UK quickly turns into the exact thing I wanted in a very short time, delivered to my door, usually after being to the galvanisers first...and still 200 cheaper than the insane prices I'm quoted locally.

I posted on here yonks ago regards restoring LR panels. I lost count of how many people replied as if it weren't that big a deal to get somebody to repair them. Well...I carried a truck cab roof in my boot for 3 MONTHS!!! I stopped at every likely place, every recommended person, literally anywhere I came across when out working, out with family etc. Not one single person would touch it unless they could fill and paint.

Yet my friend jumped on Ferry to mainland about 9 weeks ago on a Monday with a wonky roof and 4 wings...and came back Wed evening with every one looking as good as new and without a dab of filler.

I love Ireland, but a true craftsmans mecca it certainly aint! I'm sure theres got to be a few...I just haven't found them
Click to expand...
There must have been a fair amount of skill around at one time. Given the standard of ship building that came out of Ireland the skills were there. Like everything else it's been pissed away for cheaper imported shite.
 
meego said:
I served my time on old British and American lathes, mills, slotters, planers etc and they were great machines. You had to know the machine though and allow for "throw" as we called it. Wear in other words. That was part of the skill of the operator.
As for drills, we were taught early on how to sharpen these. We used an angle that showed cutting edge lengths were equal (two bits of angle iron welded at 90° with white chalk on one face and a pin on the other that the drill shank end located on). You must ensure there is clearance behind the cutting edge or it wont cut. Never twist the drill against the grinding stone. Vertical movement only as this ensures the clearance. I have stuck by this and can always get a good cutting drill bit.
Click to expand...
We called it backlash at GEC turbines when i was on the lathes,sharpening drills correctly is a good skill to have,we got taught how to offset grind drills in case you needed a bit of clearance,but not enough to go up a drill size.Also how to grind a drill for cutting soft or hard materials.
 
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