L series power mods - collecting parts...............

That's a lie... you think I'm a poopy bum head, who smells of cabbage

Dakta said:

Dan told me about this thread, I thought i'd have a look in but unfortunately I only have time to give it a 20 second skim (knee deep in a university assignment, and residential course next week)

There's a lot of talk about misinformation etc, we never go out of our way to mislead, however tuning is mostly reverse engineering so at core a lot of information is based on research, taking stuff apart, comparing bits of information and testing. It's prone to error at times, no attempt will ever be made to mislead but the whole art of tuning is finding out what's right and wrong, and typically it is a mix of both.

Whilst the technology and knowhow to map these ecu's is well established (its amongst the oldest and simplest ecu families to work with) the demand for these is quite small (or it has been in my experience) so Joe is likely to be asking questions in his project that few have asked before, even if it might seem quite obvious to him!

Anyway, I won't banter on but thought i'd pop in and say hello as it has been a while since I've last managed to sit down and do some good old fashioned emailing, I also want to put to bed any risk of conflict because I've a lot of respect for the knowledge of every single poster here.

Kris

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HI Kris - Great to see you on here !. - question though ? Does Dan really smell of cabbage ?
Joe

You know that smell when you keep knowledge contained at room temperature a bit too long? Bit like that.

Brains need to be used or refrigerated

(Sorry Dan, nothing implied!)

Dakta said:

You know that smell when you keep knowledge contained at room temperature a bit too long? Bit like that.

Brains need to be used or refrigerated

(Sorry Dan, nothing implied!)

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^ re-reading that it reads really crappy. No offense dude.

None taken - barely been using them for a few weeks... I did wonder why the smell wouldn't leave

FIGHT - FIGHT - FIGHT - FIGHT

Anyway it'd be nice to see things develop as I have a lot of interest in the old distributor pump type diesels, a dying breed now commonrails are the norm but I'm very much a fan.

Then pull your finger out, make it 30 hours in a day, and get the zr running!

Nearly tripped over those thermal spacers just now too. Need to drop them off at yours

Question to all you L lovers, I'm looking for rough car for off roading and L series are the sort of price point I want so the question is, which is a safer bet?
A low mileage car (just over 100k) but been laid up unused for a couple of years so the engine hasn't been running and when it started it ran pretty poorly or a high mileage (170k) but MOT'd and used regularly?

Edit, posting here cause I will be modding for more power as soon as I get it. I'm thinking of the engine only as I already know the laid up car will need new brakes and probably bushes all round.

Alibro said:

Question to all you L lovers, I'm looking for rough car for off roading and L series are the sort of price point I want so the question is, which is a safer bet?
A low mileage car (just over 100k) but been laid up unused for a couple of years so the engine hasn't been running and when it started it ran pretty poorly or a high mileage (170k) but MOT'd and used regularly?

Edit, posting here cause I will be modding for more power as soon as I get it. I'm thinking of the engine only as I already know the laid up car will need new brakes and probably bushes all round.

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I'd buy the cheapest. But I'm tight!!

Nodge68 said:

I'd buy the cheapest. But I'm tight!!

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lol - I would agree, the beauty of diesel is that it is a lubricant - petrol is not. engines coated internally in diesel fuel tend to be in excellent condition after long periods of inactivity. Also, no matter how many miles and how an engine looks - it can be a lottery as to what you get.
The L series is simply superb in its ability to keep going and also not suffer any real issues. It is a veritable gem really.
Mine had been totally abused in the last - say - 5 years of it's life. the cooling system was knackered and actually blocked in many places. No antifreeze or corrosion additives had been added in at least the previous 5 years.
I will show you some pics of some of the shock horror state lol, and also the internals which even after all that abuse were in totally superb condition - the phots have not been altered - the internals are exactly as photographed when the sump was removed - no cleaning - nada - it had - certainly in the last 5 years run on cheapo supermarket oil and probably never been changed. There is no bore wear, the crank is superb (we removed a few caps - main and BE to check - and the head was off whilst out of the car.

Check the water pump YIKES - egr valve for TOTAL blockage etc - it was a full coreplug removal and flush - but, it is literally superb - oh, and mileage is 215 K (about 134K miles in old money)



Above is waterpump, and egr water passages -

Below is internal with sump off at exactly the same time - like new !


So, this had been running for around 5 years on **** fuel (I am sure he would have bought the cheapest supermarket stuff (mind you lol - I still do )
The fuel air and oil filters had never - we believe - been changed - the cooling system was blocked in many many areas and absolutely no corrosion inhibitor.
Yikes - but it is a peach now.
- New core plugs after cleaning all the crap out - also new water pipes as they all leaked due to corrosion -!

So, under the crap, a truly superb unit. But, of course, it is a total lottery - apart form the fact that the L series is incredibly resilient. - I would side with nodge - go for the cheapest

Joe

As Joe said. The L series engine is basically bomb proof. Rover engines are always over engineered when it comes down to cranks and bearings. The L block is very sturdy and resistant to distortion. Bearings are always by Glacier (Venderwell). They are some of the best bearings money can buy.
As Joe correctly said. Diesel is a natural lubricant, so bore wear will be minimal.
As long as the rest of the vehicle can be made serviceable, I'd not be unduly worried about the engine.

There are several areas to consider when reading the issues with info on the net is

Nodge68 said:

As Joe said. The L series engine is basically bomb proof. Rover engines are always over engineered when it comes down to cranks and bearings. The L block is very sturdy and resistant to distortion. Bearings are always by Glacier (Venderwell). They are some of the best bearings money can buy.
As Joe correctly said. Diesel is a natural lubricant, so bore wear will be minimal.
As long as the rest of the vehicle can be made serviceable, I'd not be unduly worried about the engine.

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Agreed nodge - as usual - oh - ! have you looked closely at that water pump pic showing the impeller ! - FREEKING 'ELL - ! never seen one that bad lol
I bought the L series because - firstly - the body was absolutely mint - as was the underside - structurally as new (that is a Portugal thing due to no salt) -
The engine ran great apart from the dreaded judder between 1800 and 2200 rpm especially in 3rd - 4rth - that was and almost always is down to clutch judder usually caused by the rear crank bearing leaking - not unusual at all - the clutch and bell housing gets a good splatter over time. Many say this is quite normal - it definitely is not. ! - a New borg & beck clutch and rear crank seal kit sorted it out good and proper .
PG1 gearbox in the uprated form as fitted to the diesels is also pretty damn good,
IRD was knackered on mine - I knew that when I bought it - so the rear diff was also suspect. A recon IRD, new Bell engineering VCU after dumping the Portuguese recon VCU that worked great at about 3000 rpm ... doh .... brought it back to life.
It really is like new now.
any way, beck to the engine - the L series - it is a good unit to tune -or if you will - increase power / torque. The simple ronbox or the actual very simple circuit that it uses is a good thing and cheap as chips !. Ideally it needs a small mod to take a tap from either the map or preferably the TPS which has an idle switch - also the published resistor values are not ideal - but work great !. - the issue is that it is linear - perfectly acceptable for most for a quick fix. Turbos - upping the boost is worthwhile - it is fairly simple to do with adjustment of the actuator rod from the wastegate actuator. Most times the MAP sensor will take care of the fuelling - otherwise add the resistor feedback tweek to the VP37 pump quantity control. Decat is well worth doing - just smash the innards out of the existing unit - don't buy an 'aftermarket pipe.
One thing to watch with the VP37 pump is the injection advance / retard solenoid on the base of the unit - this is controlled by the Needle lift sensor and the CPS. this is a known issue and can stick or fail to operate leading to quite noticeable diesel knock - it is PWM operated by a closed circuit loop. It usually can be removed and cleaned and brought back to life. Otherwise adding more power by the above methods can cause a considerable diesel knock - way above normal.
The 'commencement of injection solenoid' as it is normally called also does as it says on the tin - it is a form of injection advance retard unit. Many / most diesels are retarded (no not in the doh sense lol) bu tin the commencement of injection - often causing a loss of about 4% of potential power, this is due to emissions regs and the oxides of Nitrogen..... removing some of this is a good thing in many cases - note - the simple feedback quantity loop resistor mod cannot do this. A remap can. !
So, many things can be done to increase the power - many are happy with the quantity resistor mod. but for the best case, do all the other mods - or plan on what you are doing - then send the DCU (/ ECU) to Kris at http://www.dieselpowered.co.uk/ for mods - it is very cost effective and the best way imho. (Yes - the same Kris posting here !

As for turbos - again, many checks for turbo performance were done with the early freelander L series - these definitely ran a 100400 turbo unit which was 'not the best' but mostly adequate - virtually same spec (and same core as the early SDi units ! - later - LR decided, in their wisdom - and probably to standardise across the range - to change the turbo in early '98 to a 100490 model which is functionally and performance /. tuning potential wise identical to the MGZR turbo. !. So many items - including wiki ! - show the freeby has having a lower spec turbo - meaning higher gains could be added by changing the unit to the MGZR unit. - if the freeby is fitted with the 100490 unit turbo you gain nothing by changing it. However - if it has the 100400 unit, changing to the ZR unit (100500 - need to swap over the exhaust turbine housing) or later freeby 100490 unit (direct bolt on) can offer performance gains depending on the level of tuning you require. It was only be much research into my unit core (due to repalcement parts anomalies) that I found this out and confirmed it- including correspondence with Garrett. As Kris rightly says, there is little demand for L series Freelander tuning so, original and definitive tests on turbo specs were absolutely correct and conclusive - that the unit fitted was indeed the older spec SDi unit - not the later spec ZR unit.. (typical LR). This is not a case of misinformation or misleading information, it is simply that the original data was eventually made vehicle specific by LR when they decided without notification to change the turbo ! - and, of course, there was no need for any tuning company to retest as demand for tuning the freeby were minimal compared to other L series. It is only very recently that this info has come to light.
Kris can advise on sensible achievable power outputs. INHO, the remap is by far the best way to go along with other small changes.
Dan is the Prof out of back to the future lol - he is one crazy dude (no offence Dan ) - is quite prepared to go where no man has gone before so has a hell of a lot of hands on experience also.
Just my input.
Joe

Regard EVRY mod - a slight better approach - although not much noticeable difference - a more elegant solution.



A slightly improved version is to fit a 2K variable resistor across pins 6 and 7 - ALSO - fit a fixed 2K resistor across pins 7 and 8.
This allows a balanced max value of 666 ohms at either end of the divider chain rather than a slight imbalance.

Also, an npn transistor feeding the variable resistor from 6 and 7 tied to the TPS idle switch would remove the variable 2k from circuit at idle ---
In this case I would not be using the 2 K lower fixed resistor.. - hence everything would effectively be as normal - ie the EVRY would be removed at idle.///

It is Barbecue time in Portugal at the mo - so thinking out loud.. and back of a fag packet...(so forgive me if any of this EVRY mid is incorrect lol - I don't think it is but hey --- burgers and cold ones are higher in the food chain )- - but the system is basic and good enough for a scatter gun approach to ;tuning; - and just needs balancing without idle control or, a simple transistor and a few resistors to add idle cut off....
Pondering - tum te tum te tum lol

Joe

Dakta said:

Anyway it'd be nice to see things develop as I have a lot of interest in the old distributor pump type diesels, a dying breed now commonrails are the norm but I'm very much a fan.

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I agree Kris, it will be rather good to see the results. looking forward to it ! - should get my ecu files to you shortly - the one pictured is one of two 'spare' units.
My unit should be available later this week as I am having a new towbar fitted tomorrow. then we can play. - the freeby can sit under the house in the shade while I remove the ecu - after using the reflow unit on the [spare one - to' test ' ) - I have the winbond W27C512 units - labled as SST 27SF512 !- functionally I cannot see any difference so should be great - also hoping for arrival of a a uv erase unit this week (only 9 quid!) - so the two spare ecu's (15 quid for both !! bargain dude ) = plenty spare UV eproms if needed. I am more than sure - after lots of tests and hammering (including freezer and 100C testing ! - that the winbond units are fine !. either way - no worries. I either use the 512 eeprom with an 0X8000 offset or the original UV eproms - not an issue.

Looking forward to playing
Joe

OK stupid question number two then.
For off roading with slightly oversized tyres, an L series would need a big increase in power/torque because from memory it is pretty gutless as standard, the TD4 on the other hand is pretty good as standard. So with simple upgrades like a Ron box, CAT removal and whatever other mods are recommended here, which engine will give more power?

Alibro said:

OK stupid question number two then.
For off roading with slightly oversized tyres, an L series would need a big increase in power/torque because from memory it is pretty gutless as standard, the TD4 on the other hand is pretty good as standard. So with simple upgrades like a Ron box, CAT removal and whatever other mods are recommended here, which engine will give more power?

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speak to @Diesel Do

The Mad Hat Man said:

speak to @Diesel Do

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Not speaking to him any more. Every time I do I spend money!

Lift kit on the way.

Compared to all the tech stuff discussed here - I know diddly squat. What I do know though, and this may be a sucking eggs type suggestion, is that unless there is a history that you can trust, definitely replace the belts/tensioners on any L Series. The belts and bits aren't that expensive, but there's 3 (cam/pump/aux) and they'll all cause major problems if they go.

One thing I did think about with the laid up one being quite damp was how its affected this electronics. With all the connectors etc in the cabin, I'm sure untold damage can be done by them rusting up.

In my 3 years on the forum the L Series is the least discussed of the engines. There's been a regular drip feed of threads about the other engines, lots are obviously duplicate topics, but over the 3 years I've got to know engines I've never owned better than the one in my Freelander! Over the last couple of months though there's been an explosion of info about the L Series - to much to quick - I can't process it quick enough. My engine that I love for its plodding, economic, reliable, bullet proof, noisy, smokey - you could say agricultural character is turning into this complex street racer of a lump - I'm very confused! It would be a bit like waking up one morning and finding my wife, the mother of my children, whom I love and adore is actually a high class hooker! I'm in need of counseling!

GrumpyGel said:

It would be a bit like waking up one morning and finding my wife, the mother of my children, whom I love and adore is actually a high class hooker!

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be careful wot yu wish fur