Freelander 1 Kv6 not starting - getting desperate!

So I thought I had seen the back of this car but it was towed to my place as it would not start

NAS KV6 2003


Cranks, fuel in the tank etc, but I was told that the owner drove home for lunch no problems, jumps back in the car and it would not start.


So I check all the obvious things as you do – and there were no wires off – battery was charged and there was no light on the dash for the alarm


The first thing that was replaced was the crank sensor – had a few Discos not start because of this – Nope


Then I stick the computer on and find the fault P0341 cam sensor – so we got a new one – nothing


So now it is becoming a mystery


I made sure the cam belt was good and the exhaust cam was turning

I measured the old cam sensor against the new one and checked the wiring to the connecter – everything good


Next checked the wiring harness for the cam sensor from the ECU to the sensor – everything was good 12.5 volts, ground and signal wire good to the ECU


Next I tested the cam sensors by powering them up and attaching an analogue mulitmeter to the signal, then passing a metal object in front of them – nice strong signal 0v to 5v – both were good


The strange thing is I can clear the code and as soon as I crank the engine the code is back


There is no spark or injection


So just out of fun I tested the fuel pressure – 45 psi – not quite as recommended in the WSM which stated 55 Psi – pressure holds fine - was hoping there was a low pressure switch, but the fuel delivery system seems to be the simplest thing on the car


Now I looked at the immobilisation and things look interesting:


When the engine cranks, provided a valid mobilisation signal is received from the immobilisation ECU, the ECM initiates throttle control, fuelling and ignition to start and maintain control of the engine as necessary to meet driver demand. If no mobilisation code is received from the immobilisation ECU, or the code is invalid, the ECM inhibits fuel injection and ignition to prevent the engine from starting.



There is no remote key fob for the central locking but the key is there and I even pulled the back off to see if the chip had not fallen out – all was correct - and it had been working fine for 2 years prior to this



So I cannot spend much more shop time on this as I am getting nowhere and I do not want to run up a big bill for the customer



So any ideas?



Thanks



Mike

I know nothing about those beasts, just some thoughts. If the ECU keeps throwing up a cam sensor fault - then presumably that is the fault it thinks it has. Can you check the signal is getting to the relevant connector on the ECU - ie check the pin while it is being turned over? I'd have thought the connector block is quite tight and waterproof so it might be hard.

Are you sure the code is for the cam sensor? Is the diag kit you are using giving you an actual code or a description that it may be interpreting incorrectly.

As far as I can see, P0341 means the cam sensor signal does not correlate with the crank, so both could be suspects, including their wiring. Check crank sensor wiring as well.

I've also seen (on this forum) cam and crank sensors installed as part of a no-start diagnosis and forgotten about, when in fact the new parts were defective. Did you install genuine parts?

I've had very little success with aftermarket cam sensors. Only the genuine BMW sensors seem to work reliably, out the box.

I seem to remember seeing that code before. I'm sure it was caused by the torque converter being fitted in the wrong position. It was a good few years back, so my memory could be clouded.

Yes genuine parts fitted and tested to see if they were working

There is perfect continuity from sensors to the ECU

I did suspect the belt could have jumped a tooth, but a long shot - belt was changed 18 months ago and engine was running perfect until it was stopped.

I did suspect a jumped belt, but as it was running well and this is an interference engine, then it would have possibly have bent a valve or two

So strange how this engine was running great and then over lunch time decided not to start (which makes me think of an immobilisation issue)

I have had Disco 2's die because of the crank sensor so that was the first thing to be changed, but I did read about the cam sensor, I have 3 levels of diagnostics, BlackBox, Lynx and the regular OBD11 reader - all the same code, all the time


If you know how to test these sensors, then they are pretty simple to test with an analogue mulitmeter – a digital meter cannot respond quick enough



I would really like to eliminate the Immobilisation if possible – can someone tell me that if the light on the dash goes out then the whole system is clear and good to go OR is it for the security - there seems to be different levels

If it cranks, then it's not likely to be the immobilizer active.
Unless the immobilizer unit has gone out of sync with the engine ECU?

In normal circumstances, the immobilizer unit prevents cranking when active. It also sounds the chime if an attempt is made to crank the engine without the correct transponder code being read by the immobilizer.
As this is cranking, the immobilizer is seeing the correct key.

It's very strange to park it up running fine, then it not start on return.

This is one thing that was throwing me, as this is in the WSM

If no mobilisation code is received from the immobilisation ECU, or the code is invalid, the ECM inhibits fuel injection and ignition to prevent the engine from starting

and I have no injection signal or sparks

The problem was I could not check the signal from the immobilisation ECU to the ECM as it is a rolling code - it it was simply an internal relay with refence to ground in the immobilisation ECU, then I would simply ground the wire and by pass the ECU and it sould start IF it was an immobilisation ECU issue, so thank you for clearing that one up!


I have read about cam sensors on these vehicles going bad and by allowing them to cool (or chilling them), will allow the sensor to work to ge tthe car started again as the cam sensor is only needed to start the enigne - you can unplug it once running

Do you think it is possible for these engines to jump a tooth on the belt?

I have seen what a broken belt will do, and fear the worst if a valve or two is bent

The immobilizer definitely kills both the engine crank by breaking the connection between the ignition switch crank terminal and the starter relay.

The immobilizer also sends a rolling code to the engine ECU. If the correct code isn't received, the ECU inhibits fuel injection and sparks.

However if the ECU doesn't get a correct cam timing signal, then injection and sparks are also inhibited.

It is possible for the belt to jump. However there is normally some other factor behind it. A broken tensioner or idler can cause belt slippage, and extensive valve damage!

It's not difficult to check the valve timing. But checking the tensioner or idler is a pain, without lots of stripping down.

Sorry I somehow missed that you quoted a specific code.

That is obviously (famous last words) why the engine will not start. I think you can put thoughts of immobilisation out of your mind (or maybe check it on the code reader).

Doing a quick search on here for P0341, which only found 1 hit, and a google seems to show that it will stop the car from starting - so you'll need to stop it occurring.

It can exceedingly difficult to precisely determine the exact scenario that leads to a code being raised by specific maker when reading generic descriptions of ODB codes - and this is possibly one of those situations. There are various different ODB codes relating to a faulty CAM sensor - so this code doesn't just mean "its broke" - or indeed the ECU "thinks its broke" - it is a specific variation on it "thinks its broke". I hate going blindly by googling, but this page does appear to have a definitive (?) reason for P0341...

https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/p0341-obd-ii-trouble-code-camshaft-position-sensor-circuit-range-performance-by-jay-safford

Basically "The sensor pulses do not correlate to the pulses of the crankshaft sensor". It lists various reasons and fixes, including the possibility that the reluctor ring is faulty on the camshaft itself.

I don't know if you've seen it, but this is the only thread I could find in the Freelander forum...

https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/kv6-freelander-warm-starting-problems.288937/#post-3567938

Just to add another spanner into the works. Another Canadian (now ex!) Freelander owner recently had all sorts of problems diagnosing an issue with his KV6 - I forget how it manifested itself. However, that turned out to be the ECU itself. He ended up having to swap out the ECU, immobiliser, CCU. Had to have the replacement parts shipped away for programming as well before they could be installed (presumably so he could keep his keys). Its highly unlikely that that is your problem!

Thanks


Looks like I will have to strip the covers off and check the timing


Belt was changed 18 months ago by myself - I have done others and have the tools - ALL parts were genuine Rover parts and the water pump/ tensioner were changed too – the original tensioner was scrap after 77,000 km


But what fox's me is how can the timing go out after just stopping for an hour for lunch? Does not make an sense


If the belt had jumped whilst driving you would have thought a valve would have bent or power would be lost


I checked to see if the exhaust cam was turning by eye and also confirmed a signal was generated by the sensor whilst the engine was cranked.


What really is frustrating is this car is junk- lot of rust, they have been driving it with the rear driveshaft off as the support bearings gave out on the shaft, rear window does not lift etc


Even if the motor was running you would be struggling to get $500 – more than the cost of a belt and parts

britrest said:

Thanks


Looks like I will have to strip the covers off and check the timing


Belt was changed 18 months ago by myself - I have done others and have the tools - ALL parts were genuine Rover parts and the water pump/ tensioner were changed too – the original tensioner was scrap after 77,000 km


But what fox's me is how can the timing go out after just stopping for an hour for lunch? Does not make an sense


If the belt had jumped whilst driving you would have thought a valve would have bent or power would be lost


I checked to see if the exhaust cam was turning by eye and also confirmed a signal was generated by the sensor whilst the engine was cranked.


What really is frustrating is this car is junk- lot of rust, they have been driving it with the rear driveshaft off as the support bearings gave out on the shaft, rear window does not lift etc


Even if the motor was running you would be struggling to get $500 – more than the cost of a belt and parts

Click to expand...

The cam sensor is only used at start up I believe - so if something broke while driving you would not know. It would only be when you got back in it to start it the next time that you'd find the fault.

But if the belt jumped during driving I think there would be a power loss or something noticeable?


Yes I know the cam sensor is only used for start up, and looking at the cam from the sensor hole the reluctor is a pretty hefty lump of metal in there (and it turns)– no breaks or bits missing


That is always the problem in diagnosing a non runner – I only have the customers side of the story – I cannot get it running to see what could be the problem

I read somewhere the cams can break - I wonder if that could be the problem?

But there again they do not break when you switch off the engine!

GrumpyGel said:

The cam sensor is only used at start up I believe - so if something broke while driving you would not know. It would only be when you got back in it to start it the next time that you'd find the fault.

Click to expand...

That's correct. The cam timing signal is only needed for initial timing sequencing. After the engine is running, all timing is based on the crank signal. So if the cam sensor failed while the engine is running, it will continue to run. Simply not starting when next start is attempted. I can't see how a belt can jump with the engine stationary, but anything is possible I guess.

You can check the cam timing easy enough. Maybe the front pulley bolt has shifted, allowing the cam to turn slightly?
If you set the crank to the 90° timing position and insert a pin through the timing hole. You can then check the front link belt pulley for correct alignment of the marks.

I am going to go out and find the pin outs for the crank sensor in the ECU itself - maybe the signal from the crank sensor is weak and thus not correlating with the cam sensor thus not starting

I tested the wires from the cam sensor to the ECU and tested the crank sensor off the vehicle but not to the ECU as it was showing a cam code


Maybe...?


I know when I have had D2’s in with bad crank sensors it does not throw a code, but as the rev counter does not flicker you know it is the sensor not working

Here you go.

Blue/Green pin 5 and Black/Slate on pin 18.

The Yellow/Green at the sensor, commons to all the other sensors and takes ignition live from fuse 5.

Yeap I just tested them in the ECU and there was a signal
Now taking the front covers off to check the belts

Belt looks good so far

my old car stopped once and it was the wire coming off the cam sensor so maybe there could be a problem with the wires to the sensor.

And the fault was..


The front exhaust cam has moved somehow – about 4/5 degrees

Rear cam lines up good


Belt and tensioner were good

So I suspect bent valves


Not worth fixing – so if any Canadians need parts I know where there are quite a few


Thanks for all your help guys


Mike