im sorry to say this is not an aprils fool joke

wammers said:

It is quite possible to snap a Range Rover or Land Rover halfshaft by applying the hand brake carrying an load and with grippy tyres. Or even shear already worn splines in a sun wheel or on the shaft. But i think bending one is a little beyond the bounds of probability in normal use. Anyway that would only effect a Sun wheel, not the crown wheel, the Sun wheels are going to give way long before the crown wheel will. Teeth are usually lost from crown wheels when the wear is such that the pinion climbs out of mesh. Or the main crown wheel and carrier flex enough for the pinion to run on the edge of the teeth when under extreme load. Normal road use would not cause this to happen, unless the S/H diff was knacked in the first place.

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That is not my experience.

Datatek said:

That is not my experience.

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That may well be your experience. But in well over fourty years as a mechanic i have never seen a bent half shaft. I have seen lots of broken ones and lots of sheared splines though. The P38s hub and halfshaft design does not lend itself to shock bending as any deformation of the halfshaft due to shock would also mean a seriously bent axle casing. You mention torsional or torque whip i cannot think that a DSE or any other derivative is capable of exerting enough of this on a halfshaft to cause it to bend from fatigue in normal use. I think you mentioned racing cars and Morris minor axles, the long thin halfshafts in these were meant to transmit about 35/40 bhp, i can see how they would flap around like a fiddlers elbow with 100 bhp going through them, that i can live with.
,

STRANGE you should mention morris minor rear axles thats what my elva was fitted with when the halfshaft bent mind you it was supposed to have a e39a side valve +3 speed box,i fitted mine with a mg magnette engine and box then later an m g b +od gearbox so it gotta a bit of stick until swapped it for a 1500 riley axle..dave

big dave2 said:

STRANGE you should mention morris minor rear axles thats what my elva was fitted with when the halfshaft bent mind you it was supposed to have a e39a side valve +3 speed box,i fitted mine with a mg magnette engine and box then later an m g b +od gearbox so it gotta a bit of stick until swapped it for a 1500 riley axle..dave

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Exactly Dave. Data is possibly quite correct in what he says, but i would not think a Minor axle would ever bend an halfshalft in normal use in the vehicle it was designed to fit. Fitted to a vehicle with twice or more than twice the power it was designed to absorb, the halfshafts would be like sticks of spanish. Some sort of failure is inevitable.

wammers said:

Exactly Dave. Data is possibly quite correct in what he says, but i would not think a Minor axle would ever bend an halfshalft in normal use in the vehicle it was designed to fit. Fitted to a vehicle with twice or more than twice the power it was designed to absorb, the halfshafts would be like sticks of spanish. Some sort of failure is inevitable.

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There are so many mechanical failures on P38's that I get the impression that everything is under engineered

Datatek said:

There are so many mechanical failures on P38's that I get the impression that everything is under engineered

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Or maybe due to the high cost, under maintained.

wammers said:

Or maybe due to the high cost, under maintained.

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Diff failures do not seem to common on other 4 X 4's and as long as the oil doesn't escape they should be maintenance free for extended periods. With the P38 it's everything from door handles up.

Datatek said:

Diff failures do not seem to common on other 4 X 4's and as long as the oil doesn't escape they should be maintenance free for extended periods. With the P38 it's everything from door handles up.

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Don't know about that Ford Mavericks are famous for transmission failure. And that is just driving around without pulling anything. Have just changed the rear diff on mine 109,000 miles and the previous owner was a caravan enthusiast. Nothing broke in it, just the nose bearings. Did think of stripping it and changing them but at £250.00 for a recon hardly worth the hassle. I did check oil level when i bought it and it was low so that possibly caused the bearings to fail. So all in all i think they would be still going now IF the previous owner had maintained it properly. Due to the high cost of garage maintainence these days many people just drive and forget until something goes wrong. Many of the vehicles on here are maintained by happy amatuers to save on cost. Many would not be able to run a Rangie IF they did not do their own maintainance. That is what this forum is about. Sadly some are not up to it. Or have bought a pig in a poke that someone else has neglected. How many people check their water and engine oil once a week? How many people wait until the temp gauge climbs into the red or the oil light comes on going around a bend or up an hill? I think the latter outweigh the former by a vast majority. Sadly the damage has already been done in some cases. How many people on here rely on their kicker to sort out EAS faults time after time without finding out what the cause is and rectifying it? Then when something else fails because of what may have been a small problem, they come on here with a urgent plea for help because the bump stops have come into permanent use. Cheap but sometimes time comsuming proactive maintenance is far better in my view than expensive and frustrating
reactive repair. Which made more difficult when you have not the remotest idea what you are doing. But there lies another story.

YOUR spot on there wammers the majority of vechicles we drive would not be on the road if not for us,people with money would not be messing about with diffs,e a s ,head gaskets ect the motors would be cashed in for a new un they get routine servicing +occasional breakdown after that its cashed in.
now if we didnt buy em they would be scrapped because they,r uneconomical to run using main dealers so its up to us enthusiastic ameteurs to keep em going

Datatek said:

There are so many mechanical failures on P38's that I get the impression that everything is under engineered

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built down to a PRICE is the most likely explanation,R R allways had a high reputation but when the p38 was being developed money was tight every body expected electronics my understanding was that RR electronics where done on the cheap hence all the problems
lets face it most motors on the road today have electronics some a lot more complicated than rangies but have no problems ,i have a 95 merc diesel electronic everything its no bother,the sons bmw 330i sport is even more complicated than the merc or the rangie but its no bother ,you dont even think about it,take it for granted ,thats how it should be.
but range rovers no chancefor a prestige motor im afraid they,r cheap and nasty ,for 60k + build quality should be excellent but they suffer from the british disease mores the pity. british is best but not for a long time....dave

big dave2 said:

built down to a PRICE is the most likely explanation,R R allways had a high reputation but when the p38 was being developed money was tight every body expected electronics my understanding was that RR electronics where done on the cheap hence all the problems
lets face it most motors on the road today have electronics some a lot more complicated than rangies but have no problems ,i have a 95 merc diesel electronic everything its no bother,the sons bmw 330i sport is even more complicated than the merc or the rangie but its no bother ,you dont even think about it,take it for granted ,thats how it should be.
but range rovers no chancefor a prestige motor im afraid they,r cheap and nasty ,for 60k + build quality should be excellent but they suffer from the british disease mores the pity. british is best but not for a long time....dave

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Could be something in that Dave. Built down to a price then sold at far greater than they should be to maximise profit. A lot of the profit from vehicles is in spares at greatly inflated prices. I had a tour of the Longbridge plant some years ago a first motion shaft for a Marina cost £9.50 to make and cost £90.00 to buy or so i was told. I also remember a mate of mine who was doing a job at Bush television factory somewhere in Yorkshire a long time ago. He was given a tour of the production line for i think Finlandia telies. The proud boast of the director taking him around was they wholesaled for £250.00 and cost £12.50 to make. Draw your own conclusions.

wammers said:

Don't know about that Ford Mavericks are famous for transmission failure. And that is just driving around without pulling anything. Have just changed the rear diff on mine 109,000 miles and the previous owner was a caravan enthusiast. Nothing broke in it, just the nose bearings. Did think of stripping it and changing them but at £250.00 for a recon hardly worth the hassle. I did check oil level when i bought it and it was low so that possibly caused the bearings to fail. So all in all i think they would be still going now IF the previous owner had maintained it properly. Due to the high cost of garage maintainence these days many people just drive and forget until something goes wrong. Many of the vehicles on here are maintained by happy amatuers to save on cost. Many would not be able to run a Rangie IF they did not do their own maintainance. That is what this forum is about. Sadly some are not up to it. Or have bought a pig in a poke that someone else has neglected. How many people check their water and engine oil once a week? How many people wait until the temp gauge climbs into the red or the oil light comes on going around a bend or up an hill? I think the latter outweigh the former by a vast majority. Sadly the damage has already been done in some cases. How many people on here rely on their kicker to sort out EAS faults time after time without finding out what the cause is and rectifying it? Then when something else fails because of what may have been a small problem, they come on here with a urgent plea for help because the bump stops have come into permanent use. Cheap but sometimes time comsuming proactive maintenance is far better in my view than expensive and frustrating
reactive repair. Which made more difficult when you have not the remotest idea what you are doing. But there lies another story.

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I bought a P38 specifically because the info was available to do it myself unlike most other electronically sophisticated cars. Electronics, microprocessors and air driven machinery is what I did, plus building and racing club cars and bikes so the P38 is ideal for me cos I like to play. It just makes me sad to see how badly it is put together in some ways, my Transit is no better, 6 years old and rusting through from the inside. The British motor industry has learnt nothing over the years.

Datatek said:

I bought a P38 specifically because the info was available to do it myself unlike most other electronically sophisticated cars. Electronics, microprocessors and air driven machinery is what I did, plus building and racing club cars and bikes so the P38 is ideal for me cos I like to play. It just makes me sad to see how badly it is put together in some ways, my Transit is no better, 6 years old and rusting through from the inside. The British motor industry has learnt nothing over the years.

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Sad but true. However it does make you wonder why the OBDII standard that now covers every vehicle, has to be so difficult to access on the Range Rover. You can get the full monty OBDII package for BMW, VW, Fords and most other vehicles without having to pay the earth. The Land Rover system pushes ownes into expensive dealers or into the hands of the few who may be clever enough to write there own, or most probably rip the software from Testbook. Then stick it into £5.00 worth of chips and a £2.00 case and sell it on. Very bad for the owners trying to keep their pet on the road, but very good for the few who take advantage of the situation. Nothing against the bloke, but i do not think Irish would be doing his present tour of the UK IF the Land Rover OBDII system was as easy to access as the VW or BMW systems are. Just a thought.

wammers said:

Sad but true. However it does make you wonder why the OBDII standard that now covers every vehicle, has to be so difficult to access on the Range Rover. You can get the full monty OBDII package for BMW, VW, Fords and most other vehicles without having to pay the earth. The Land Rover system pushes ownes into expensive dealers or into the hands of the few who may be clever enough to write there own, or most probably rip the software from Testbook. Then stick it into £5.00 worth of chips and a £2.00 case and sell it on. Very bad for the owners trying to keep their pet on the road, but very good for the few who take advantage of the situation. Nothing against the bloke, but i do not think Irish would be doing his present tour of the UK IF the Land Rover OBDII system was as easy to access as the VW or BMW systems are. Just a thought.

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About the only thing thats OBDII on the P38 is the connector However LR were I think the first to use a central computer (BECM) to control everything in the car. Pioneering always carries a downside. If the EU law had not changed, I doubt the electronics on any car would be accessible. A friend of mine claims to know the bod in charge of software development at TATA LR, he seems to have little idea of what the software development teams are up to, hence little control over how practical the software is. The electronics on newer CAN BUS cars seems to distribute the computing power rather than concentrating it in one box which brings it's own problems

Datatek said:

About the only thing thats OBDII on the P38 is the connector However LR were I think the first to use a central computer (BECM) to control everything in the car. Pioneering always carries a downside. If the EU law had not changed, I doubt the electronics on any car would be accessible. A friend of mine claims to know the bod in charge of software development at TATA LR, he seems to have little idea of what the software development teams are up to, hence little control over how practical the software is. The electronics on newer CAN BUS cars seems to distribute the computing power rather than concentrating it in one box which brings it's own problems

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As far as i am aware OBDII is supposed to be an industry standard were the same code means the same thing on every vehicle. I think that was the idea. But it seems the legislation does not prevent manufacturers from making access to that information dealer specific, on very expensive dedicated equipment, like Testbook. This only seems to happen with Land Rover as far as i am aware. Most other vehicles seem to be accessible by any Elm 327 chip and simple software. Thing is that from what i have seen of the test equipment available for independant garages you can get coverage of most anything other than Land Rover in one unit with software, for half the cost of a Testbook set. I maybe wrong but that is my impression.

SORRY guys you,ve lost me ,gimme spanners and a hammer every time,,,lol dave

big dave2 said:

SORRY guys you,ve lost me ,gimme spanners and a hammer every time,,,lol dave

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Sorry Dave but it's just that the diagnostic side of Land Rovers seems to have been arranged to be dealer specific. The OBDII or diagnostic socket should be readable by any OBDII unit with suitable software. It is not, the pins in it seem to mean different things to different Land Rover diagnostic plugs as far as i can see. So that joe public cannot work on them without either paying a dealer to diagnose it, or paying a lot of money for the equipment to do it. Rant over.

thats true wammers ,the lad that does mu m o ts for me ive known him a long time since he was a kid ,he,ll do anything to help he,s had my p38 on 9 different computers with no joy whatever,like you said the car will not comunicate with computer,its got to be a dealer even then i shoot with a chap,he buys a new rangie every 3to4 years but he wont buy another he,s going japanese next time mainly because of stupid faults thats costing a fortune to fix and dealer attitude,he,s voting with his feet +can you blame him?...dave

wammers said:

As far as i am aware OBDII is supposed to be an industry standard were the same code means the same thing on every vehicle. I think that was the idea. But it seems the legislation does not prevent manufacturers from making access to that information dealer specific, on very expensive dedicated equipment, like Testbook. This only seems to happen with Land Rover as far as i am aware. Most other vehicles seem to be accessible by any Elm 327 chip and simple software. Thing is that from what i have seen of the test equipment available for independant garages you can get coverage of most anything other than Land Rover in one unit with software, for half the cost of a Testbook set. I maybe wrong but that is my impression.

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As far as I'm aware,the P38 predates the mandatory OBDII standard so it is whatever LR fancies in the way of data format.

Datatek said:

As far as I'm aware,the P38 predates the mandatory OBDII standard so it is whatever LR fancies in the way of data format.

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The VAG, BMW, Peugeot, Ford, Nissan and many other systems also pre date OBDII, but they are readable with a £25.00 to £50.00 scanner. And changable with a scanner costing a little more. The Land Rover system seems to have been designed from the onset as dealer specific, to ensure all work is done by them. As far as i am aware OBDII was brought in in Europe, as it was earlier in America, as an industry standard to stop reliance on dealer specific servicing, along with new warranty laws. So that people were not tied to a specific dealer network. Land Rover seem to have out flanked the legislation.