Freelander 1 I Don't Think My Coolant Fans Are Kicking In

Hi

I wonder if someone could help with a possible coolant fan problem.

I have a 2002 TD4 and I don't think the coolant fans are kicking in. The temperature gauge doesn't go over half way, well maybe a tad over on a long run, but the engine smells hot and is radiating heat. Recently it occasionally gives me some trouble starting that's seems like a starter motor issue (kind of like trying to start with a half flat battery) but only when hot; when the engine is cold I have no issues and I'm told that this can be a symptom of an over heating engine.

In short I'm not convinced the coolant fans are kicking in and I'm not convinced the temperature gauge is reading correctly to warn me.

Is there a way to jump the sensor system and force the fans to run so I can eliminate the fans themselves from being u/s?

Also is it possible that I've connected the wrong cable to the wrong sensor? ECT Sensor and Temperature gauge sensors are different but next to each other as I understand it. I probably had them disconnected about 3 months ago to gain access to something I'd dropped into the engine bay (wedding ring).

To give you some back ground I know I have a dodgy thermostat (pre-dates this coolant fan issue by some time) but both the upper and lower radiator pipes have always been hot when running and I get a steady flow of water through the expansion bottle when the engine finally warms up so I have always assumed that the thermostat is stuck open rather than closed. I know it's a bit of a pain to change so it's been one of next weeks jobs for about a year now. I obviously mention it because it's cooling system related and so could be relevant. I could see how a partially open stat could cause issues in extreme heat like we are having but surely the fans would be kicking in all the time if were just that.

So, can I jump the fans to force them to run so I can eliminate (or indeed condemn) them?

And is it possible to connect the wrong cable to the wrong sensor and if so could it cause this issue?

Any other ideas are more than welcome.

Fritz

Fritz said:

but the engine smells hot and is radiating heat.

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You need to measure the actual temperature with an infrared thermometer to be sure of its actual temperature.
The smell could be caused be cracking on the top of the coolant reservoir?

Fritz said:

Recently it occasionally gives me some trouble starting that's seems like a starter motor issue (kind of like trying to start with a half flat battery) but only when hot;

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Sounds like a starter solenoid on its way out. You can get a contactor set to restore it's correct operation.

Fritz said:

Is there a way to jump the sensor system and force the fans to run so I can eliminate the fans themselves from being u/s?

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I believe unplugging the sensor will put the fans on as the ECU assumes a fault and runs the fans to avoid overheating.

Fritz said:

Also is it possible that I've connected the wrong cable to the wrong sensor? ECT Sensor and Temperature gauge sensors are different but next to each other as I understand it.

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There's only one sensor for engine temperature monitoring. The engine ECU uses this to do its calculations and sends the temperature data to the Ipack ECU for display on the gauge.

Fritz said:

So, can I jump the fans to force them to run so I can eliminate (or indeed condemn) them

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Putting the AC on will run the fans on slow speed.

Fritz said:

And is it possible to connect the wrong cable to the wrong sensor and if so could it cause this issue

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Not possible.

Nodge68 said:

You need to measure the actual temperature with an infrared thermometer to be sure of its actual temperature.
The smell could be caused be cracking on the top of the coolant reservoir?

Sounds like a starter solenoid on its way out. You can get a contactor set to restore it's correct operation.

I believe unplugging the sensor will put the fans on as the ECU assumes a fault and runs the fans to avoid overheating.


There's only one sensor for engine temperature monitoring. The engine ECU uses this to do its calculations and sends the temperature data to the Ipack ECU for display on the gauge.

Putting the AC on will run the fans on slow speed.

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Great advice

Nodge68 said:

Not possible.

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Going by some of the stuff on LZ, anything is possible! Round pegs into square holes type things.

Hey thanks for the replies gents, most helpful.

I went for a run in it today and had similar issues, internal gauge sat at about half way but engine is obviously too hot. This time I could hear steam coming from the top of the expansion tank and when it had cooled right down I had to top up on water so it's definitely over heating but not showing it on the temp gauge for some reason.

It seems logical to me that if the temp sensor is sending wrong data such that the gauge is showing the wrong temp then the car doesn't know it's hot hence why the rad fans aren't kicking in. I know logical and LR Freelander aren't two words that usually go in the same sentence but I picked up a sensor for £ 10 delivered so I thought worth a try at least.

In regard to the starter solenoid kit do you mean one of these?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FREELAND...751871?hash=item3ae4ae9cff:g:OAQAAMXQcVNQ6ynp

I might hold off on that in case it was due to the engine being hot. I know I can pull the start motor fairly easily if it remains an issue as I had undone (although didn't remove) it when I had to replace that little coloured washer thing in the HP fuel pump.

Fritz

I'm not sure what the operating temperature of the TD4 is, but on the petrol engine's it is over the point of boiling the coolant at atmospheric pressure. If there is a leak in the system the pressure will be lost and the coolant boils. The normal place for this to occur is the expansion tank itself... what normally happens is that it gets a lot of very small cracks around the cap as described by Nodge above.

This could explain why you hear steam escaping from the tank.

So it is worth checking the tank as well. They can also separate between the top and bottom halves. The pressure valve in the cap itself can also fail causing it not to hold the correct pressure, I've had this myself on a Discovery.

I'm also not sure where the thermostat is in relation to the temp sensor in the TD4, or indeed if a 2nd one has been added to the system which appears common with the TD4. It may be that is faulty, meaning some coolant is boiling, while other coolant is not (ie where the temp sensor is). This may need someone with more knowledge to confirm if its a possibility or not!

It may be the temp sensor, but it is also likely to be one of the above.

Fritz said:

It seems logical to me that if the temp sensor is sending wrong data such that the gauge is showing the wrong temp then the car doesn't know it's hot hence why the rad fans aren't kicking in.

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It's conceivable that the CTS has gone out of spec, but not common.

A leaking tank is more common and will allow coolant to boil off.

Have you unplugged the sensor to see if the fans come on? Or put the AC on to see if they run slowly?

GrumpyGel said:

I'm not sure what the operating temperature of the TD4 is,

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My TD4 runs at 95°C when cruising and quickly climbs to around 100° once stationary, if AC is off. My fans run at slow speed when the coolant shows 106°C and supposed to be at maximum speed when the coolant reaches 112°C. I've never seen the coolant go over 106°C ,so slow fan speed is enough to keep temperature in check. If the AC is on, the fans spin slowly which is enough to hold the coolant at just under 100°C.

Hey thanks again for the help gents

GrumpyGel said:

I'm not sure what the operating temperature of the TD4 is, but on the petrol engine's it is over the point of boiling the coolant at atmospheric pressure. If there is a leak in the system the pressure will be lost and the coolant boils. The normal place for this to occur is the expansion tank itself... what normally happens is that it gets a lot of very small cracks around the cap as described by Nodge above.

This could explain why you hear steam escaping from the tank.

So it is worth checking the tank as well. They can also separate between the top and bottom halves. The pressure valve in the cap itself can also fail causing it not to hold the correct pressure, I've had this myself on a Discovery.

I'm also not sure where the thermostat is in relation to the temp sensor in the TD4, or indeed if a 2nd one has been added to the system which appears common with the TD4. It may be that is faulty, meaning some coolant is boiling, while other coolant is not (ie where the temp sensor is). This may need someone with more knowledge to confirm if its a possibility or not!

It may be the temp sensor, but it is also likely to be one of the above.

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So the steam from the expansion tank was between the female cap thread and the male tank thread. I'm not sure if that's how the cap works or not but I can see how micro cracks around the cap could be the source. I'll check it out.

The stat is next to the water pump on the side of the engine so I think it's at the inlet. The temp sensors is on the front of the engine next to the top hose to the rad which I think is the hot feed (If I remember correctly). I've a schematic somewhere but can't find it right now.
I haven't done the 2nd stat thing because I believe the stat is not closing (usually takes a long time to warm up to get hot air through the heater).

Nodge68 said:

It's conceivable that the CTS has gone out of spec, but not common.

A leaking tank is more common and will allow coolant to boil off.

Have you unplugged the sensor to see if the fans come on? Or put the AC on to see if they run slowly?

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I haven't unplugged the sensor yet because whilst I thin I can feel the plug there is at least one other wired connection close to it and I can't be sure what I'm pulling. I'll try to get a photo to see if I can isolate it and then pull the plug.



When I switch the A/C on the fans don't spin. Should that happen regardless of engine temp because I've only tried that with a cold engine and I'm not keen on running it hot again until I know what's wrong.

I'm thinking replace the temp sensor (because I've bought it now) and sort the stat out on the basis that i'm 99% sure it's stuck open and then can eliminate known faults. I understand that's not an easy job though.

Fritz

Nodge68 said:

My TD4 runs at 95°C when cruising and quickly climbs to around 100° once stationary, if AC is off. My fans run at slow speed when the coolant shows 106°C and supposed to be at maximum speed when the coolant reaches 112°C. I've never seen the coolant go over 106°C ,so slow fan speed is enough to keep temperature in check. If the AC is on, the fans spin slowly which is enough to hold the coolant at just under 100°C.

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Apologies, I posted before I added a reply to this post.

So when I first suspected I had a cooling issue I was driving with the heater on and fan blowing setting 2. Might that normally be enough to keep the engine cool enough?

When I was out today the heater fan wasn't on at all because I wanted to get some heat into the engine quickly. The engine was definitely too hot despite what the temp gauge said to the point where I'm pretty sure the coolant is getting to over 112 C but I still don't really understand why the temp gauge reads more or less normal if the sensor is on the run from the engine to the rad unless the sensor is u/s.

Fritz

The temp gauge is not a direct representation of the engine's temperature. They will show "1/2 way" when its in normal operating temp - for example between 90 and 100. Anything below 1/2 way would indicate below 90 and anything above 1/2 way would indicate above 110. I use those figures as an example, just to show how "1/2 way" can mean a range of operating temeratures.

not read thru all the thread ..
just adding these pics .. should they be of use

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Fritz said:

The engine was definitely too hot despite what the temp gauge said to the point where I'm pretty sure the coolant is getting to over 112 C but I still don't really understand why the temp gauge reads more or less normal if the sensor is on the run from the engine to the rad unless the sensor is u/s

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The gauges is deliberately "rigged" to show normal when the engine is in its normal operating temperature range. The engines normal operating temperature range is between 76°C and 114°C. So while the ECU sees the engine hotter then 76°C and below 114°C, the gauge will show in the middle.

GrumpyGel said:

The temp gauge is not a direct representation of the engine's temperature. They will show "1/2 way" when its in normal operating temp - for example between 90 and 100. Anything below 1/2 way would indicate below 90 and anything above 1/2 way would indicate above 110. I use those figures as an example, just to show how "1/2 way" can mean a range of operating temeratures.

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GGs way of explaining it might be easier to understand.

Fritz said:

When I switch the A/C on the fans don't spin. Should that happen regardless of engine temp

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Yes. Whenever the AC is on, the fans should spin. So if the fans aren't spinning. Then either the AC gas is low or the fan controller isn't working correctly. Have you checked the fuses for the fans and checked the wiring to the fan controller for corrosion?

Hi guys

Sorry I've not posted sooner but I've been extremely busy at work.

So desk cleared I decided to tackle the Freelander this afternoon and I have a major (as in I think terminal) problem.

I was just about to drain the coolant so I took the cap off the expansion bottle and noticed that there was no water in it, as in none at all. So I figured maybe I had a leak and that's what was going on with the fans etc.

I filled it up with water, squeezed the hoses etc. to get as much air out as possible and went back to top up but the water had completely disappeared. I looked under the car, no water. Filled it up twice more and the same thing happened. water drained away but no water on the floor.

I swore a few times then checked the oil level.

Either someone has been sneaking in at night and secretly filling my car up with excess amounts of engine oil or the coolant water is draining into the oil sump. Now I'm not normally a betting man but in this instance I'd be willing to put it all on the latter.

So I think I'm right in saying it must be a head gasket at best or cracked case/ head at worse. I'm an engineer not a mechanic but I can't think of any other way coolant could get into the sump.

Question is whether its even worth trying to repair. Bear in mind this wasn't water gradually draining away, the expansion bottle emptied in less than 5 minutes each time so its a major leak.

I've not checked what it's worth but it's a 3 Door GS 2002 car with 180k on the clock so I would of thought no more than £ 1k.

What do you think, repair or scrap?

And if the latter does anyone know of a source of reliable Freelander's?

Fritz

Fritz said:

Hi guys

Sorry I've not posted sooner but I've been extremely busy at work.

So desk cleared I decided to tackle the Freelander this afternoon and I have a major (as in I think terminal) problem.

I was just about to drain the coolant so I took the cap off the expansion bottle and noticed that there was no water in it, as in none at all. So I figured maybe I had a leak and that's what was going on with the fans etc.

I filled it up with water, squeezed the hoses etc. to get as much air out as possible and went back to top up but the water had completely disappeared. I looked under the car, no water. Filled it up twice more and the same thing happened. water drained away but no water on the floor.

I swore a few times then checked the oil level.

Either someone has been sneaking in at night and secretly filling my car up with excess amounts of engine oil or the coolant water is draining into the oil sump. Now I'm not normally a betting man but in this instance I'd be willing to put it all on the latter.

So I think I'm right in saying it must be a head gasket at best or cracked case/ head at worse. I'm an engineer not a mechanic but I can't think of any other way coolant could get into the sump.

Question is whether its even worth trying to repair. Bear in mind this wasn't water gradually draining away, the expansion bottle emptied in less than 5 minutes each time so its a major leak.

I've not checked what it's worth but it's a 3 Door GS 2002 car with 180k on the clock so I would of thought no more than £ 1k.

What do you think, repair or scrap?

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Not even worth asking if you opened the bleed screw really as the oil's rising.

Does sound like what you describe, or a liner is completely shot.

Whether its worth fixing I suppose depends on whether you'll be doing the work. It might be worth taking the head off to see if its just the HG that needs replacing. If you're doing the work yourself it won't be to much of a costly exercise. Even a replacement engine presumably wouldn't cost the earth - but you'd want to put a new HG, belts etc in a replacement.

Fritz said:

And if the latter does anyone know of a source of reliable Freelander's?

Fritz

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You ain't 'avin mine.

Could be engine oil cooler leaking - cheaper and easier then HG and a more common failure on the Td4

Ahh, didn't look back, thought this was a K, don't know if the TD4 uses liners.

So I just thought I'd let you know the ending...I found a 54 plate @ 90K with FSH. New VCU, new injectors, clutch, etc. etc. so I bought it.

@td4van I had the car towed to my work (big yard) and was chatting with RAC man who was shifting it for me. He also said knowing the TD4 engine it's much more likely to be the oil cooler than the HG so I'm going to leave it a few days and decide whether to keep the old FL as a project or simply sell it as spares/ repairs.

Anyway, thanks for all your help everyone. I have some head unit questions regarding the new one now so back to posting!!